16-12-2002 23:45									#61
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I thought it was a tremendous disappointment. Here's why:

1.) The premise was weak. Shinzon was sent to Remus because they were worried about him getting discovered and starting a war??? Lame. First, the Romulans wouldn't give a rats arse, because the Federation is too sissyfied to declare war on anyone. Hell, they're afraid to even "raise shields" in the event that it might upset some delicate diplomatic balance. Second, if he was REALLY that much of a risk, they would have just zapped him with a disruptor and swept up the mess.

2.) Somehow, the Enterprise sensors (which seem to malfunction if Picard so much as orders too much sugar on his Earl Grey from the replicator) manage to detect the "positronic signature" of B-4 from a few light years away. Riiiight. So, every other time the Enterprise has been unable to lock on to Data for the purposes of transporting him out of a dangerous situation, they haven't been able to detect his "positronic signature" when they're desperately looking for him, and they're going to find a broken prototype of him BY ACCIDENT??? Gay.

3.) The Romulans (notoriously treacherous, hated enemies of the Federation, etc., etc.) suddenly have new government (which the Federation brass admits they suspect is a military coup), and they actually send a lone starship into enemy territory to meet the new guy? Why not arrange a meeting at the border of the Neutral Zone? Why risk sending the flagship into an obviously dangerous situation when, if the intent of the Romulans was really peace, they would more than understand the need to meet at a more neutral location.

4.) The Troi "mind rape" scene was stupid. Weaker still was the premise that she could mentally reach out, find her attacker in space, and point Worf to where he should fire the photon torpedoes. Hell, Troi's spent 15 years doing nothing but stating the obvious to the Captain ("I sense a lot of aggression from the Klingons.."), and all of a sudden, she's Professor X and can track down telepaths in space and provide targeting coordinates. How about we just admit that her character has been essentially useless for the duration of the TV series and all the movies, and stop making plot holes to stuff her in?


5.) The Enterprise has no shields and limited weapons at the end, and Picard decides to ram the Scimitar, even though the Scimitar still has shields and weapons. So, instead of breaking up on the Scimitar's shields, or getting blown into dust by their disruptors, the ship essentially sits there and allows the Enterprise to hit it. The Enterprise is left still relatively intact.

6.) Riker gets into a fight with the Reman who "violated" his wife, and has all the vengeful anger of a wet sock. Honestly, I thought he was supposed to be the "tough" guy, and I expected him to go off in a blind rage. Instead, he mostly fumbles around like a retard.

7.) They can only beam one guy over to the Scimitar. They send the captain (not the more obvious choice of Worf, who is the security officer, the better fighter, and physically more imposing than anyone else on the ship). The transporters apparently "short out" after Geordi (why the hell isn't he in engineering while the ship is getting pounded?) sends him over. However, Data has a little emergency transporter doodad that works just fine to send Picard back to Enterprise. Why not replicate a few dozen of those things and send an armed away team over to the Scimitar with them?

8.) They decide to kill of a major character, and they do it so cheaply it disgusts me. When Spock died in "Wrath of Khan," there was genuine remorse and a real sense of loss, because the plot vehicle for his "ressurection" wasn't revealed until the next movie. You walked out of Star Trek II saying to yourself "Holy $hit... they killed Spock.." In "Nemesis," they deliberately establish another version of the character for Spiner to play in a future movie, complete with a "memory download" that looks like it might kick in after B-4 has more time to assimilate the data (no pun intended). Not only that, but the "wake" or memorial service (if you could call it that) that the bridge crew has for their lost comrade was shallow and weak and had all the emotion of pile of warm dog crap. I actually got choked up when Kirk eulogized Spock in ST:2. I wanted to barf after seeing the treatment Data got.

There were several other glaring plot holes (the dune buggy scene pretty much craps all over the prime directive, the Romulans getting overthrown by a Reman with one good starship is difficult to fathom, and the conveniently placed communications blackout at the final scene of the movie was hard to swallow), but I'll stop there and list a few things I DID like about the movie:

1.) Wil Wheaton had a non-speaking role. Thank God. I started to get hives just seeing him at the table with the crew at the Riker-Troi wedding.

2.) Riker gets promoted. About damned time. The fact that he was given a field promotion to Captain earlier in the series, then busted back down to Commander when Picard came back was stupid. Now they just need to resolve the problem of having a Commander (Worf) as a tactical officer.

3.) I'm actually GLAD they killed Data (I just wish they had done it a little differently), because they weren't doing a very good job explaining why the artificial life form was getting crows feet, a middle-aged spread, and a sagging jawline.

	16-12-2002 23:49									#62
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone Star Trek 14 will take a total of 7 hours and 18 minutes involving all the crews and ships and then The One Ring is found and the Force helps Neo reach Super Saiyan level 4 and Sauron and the Borg Queen give birth to Judge Dredd's evil rival... sorry... I get carried away...

	17-12-2002 00:04									#63
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Damn it, worf should stay being an ambasador! that's at least the same level as commodor and we know it's above captain. If he should leave the fereration diplomatic corps go back into starfleet it should be as captain. At least as ambasador he might get his own ship for special missions and a DS9 film will make more sence.

	17-12-2002 04:33									#64
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I'd like to see Worf take command of the Defiant again, and do a movie about some more clandestine Federation missions... a la "Mission Impossible" or something along those lines.

	17-12-2002 04:50									#65
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The thing that really bugged me is that there really wasn't a logical reason for Shinzon to hate the Federation. It was the Romulans who tortured him. Shouldn't he have spent his energy avenging himself upon the Romulans? Why bother with the Federation?

	17-12-2002 05:03									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The thing that really bugged me is that there really wasn't a logical reason for Shinzon to hate the Federation. It was the Romulans who tortured him. Shouldn't he have spent his energy avenging himself upon the Romulans? Why bother with the Federation?

Well put. Even his Reman allies had little reason to hate the Federation. Truthfully, if Shinzon had merely been after Picard for his "transfusion" (which, by the way, was an entirely unnecessary plot device), that would have made sense. But his desire to wipe out the population of Earth made no sense.

Heck, he's a 20-something human male who'd never even seen a human female before... you'd think he'd want to keep a few of them around.

	17-12-2002 13:35									#67
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wow people really ripping into star drek here.


Basically it is just a sci-fi action film for me. I gave up on their plot devices making sense. We all seen how badly those went in the TNG series. The writers fudge everything to make their flimsy story work.

I will see it tomorrow hopefully. If it has good action and excitment I will probably like it. I learned long ago not to depend on star trek for quality science fiction. Even Wrath of Khan was not about science fiction. It was just based in a space setting. But Genesis (a major plot device in ST 2 and 3) was not an example of good science fiction (I happen to think its impossible )

	17-12-2002 14:58									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident wow people really ripping into star drek here.

star drek........

"Starrrrr Drrrrrrek!

Space, the final frontier...
These are the voyages of the starship, Boobyprize...
It's five-year mission: to sell t-shirts, toy phasers,
plastic communicators, and anything else we can think of...
To seek out new life, in old plots and complications...
To boldly go where everyone has gone before!

*whoooooooosssssssssssssh*
STARRRRRRRR DREK"

	17-12-2002 23:04									#69
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So is Data KILLED or DESTRYOED?

Howya kill something that is not alive

	17-12-2002 23:14									#70
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He may not be alive, but his love is.

	17-12-2002 23:26									#71
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shatter that platic freak into a million pieces. Not even Geordi can put him back together. Maybe he will join Tasha Yar in the afterlife and make hot android love to her.

	17-12-2002 23:53									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident shatter that platic freak into a million pieces. Not even Geordi can put him back together. Maybe he will join Tasha Yar in the afterlife and make hot android love to her.

With all the goofy altered space-time continuum plots that the Trek writers like to fart out, that's not an unlikely scenario...

	18-12-2002 00:00									#73
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You big meanie, Dissident!

	18-12-2002 01:40									#74
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 He may not be alive, but his love is.

Oh give Spielberg a break. A.I. was a much better movie than Nemesis.

	18-12-2002 01:59									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Oh give Spielberg a break. A.I. was a much better movie than Nemesis.

That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison. A.I. was a very different sort of movie than Nemesis.

I didn't bother to see AI in the theater... I did watch it on DVD, and didn't really find it all that compelling; not to mention that my wife fell asleep in the middle of it.

	18-12-2002 02:29									#76
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well i am going to watch the movie when I get a chance to see it, I want to see for myself if it really sucks or is good movie.

	18-12-2002 04:43									#77
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown That's sort of an apples-to-oranges comparison. A.I. was a very different sort of movie than Nemesis. I didn't bother to see AI in the theater... I did watch it on DVD, and didn't really find it all that compelling; not to mention that my wife fell asleep in the middle of it.

Niether did I, but hell, your wife should be ashamed!!!

	18-12-2002 11:10									#78
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Just got back a few hours ago.

This movie rocks!! . I love it. Sure there are many hokey sci-fi plot devices. But I've become used to that with Star Trek. That should be nothing new.

My rating? 3 1/2 stars out of 4.

It would have been 4 stars if they had shown the actual wedding on Betazoid with full frontal nudity of Martina Sirtis . Maybe Crusher (Beverly not Wesley ), although she's put on a few years, she may have some sagging. Maybe throw in a few hot ensign bridesmades to really put this movie up and over 4 stars.

Spoilers below


But seriously I loved it. I did feel like this was a cinematic movie and not a 2 hour television episode (like Insurrection). True it had many resemblences to Star Trek 2. It is obvious they drew upon that movie for inspiration. But at least they stole ideas from the best movie in the series. There is lots of action. Sure there is no REAL sci-fi- but who needs that. I just want to see some ships blow each other to pieces. The ramming scene was pretty cool. And before that I liked how the bridge got a sunroof . Although it didn't look like everyone held on (esp. Picard). Same with when Data left the Enterprise later on by jumping out. Geordi didn't hold on for dear life. Also I would have liked to have more decompression sequences in the ramming (which was inevitable given the damage). But I'm nitpicking. This movie certainly cannot top #2, and probably not better than #6 (but pretty close). It's probably my third favourite Trek movie.

Some nitpicky hokey sci-fi stuff. The emergency transport device. A bit too small for my liking. If you can trap that much energy in such a small place, couldn't they somehow get transporters working on the enterprise? Some decompression scenes I noted above could have been done a little more realistically. The fact that recent analysis says the genes have more of an important role than upbringing in defining a person. Thus the clone should not be so different. Evil is at least partially an inherited trait imho. The motive for Shinzon was pretty lame. I can't see why he would want to eliminate Earth. And exactly how did he take control over the mighty Romulin empire so easily? And don't get me started on how Shinzon is dying. There are a few others that were already mentioned in above posts.

I did not have a problem with the lighting as the reviewer of CNN (in the opening post) had. They did live on the dark side of the planet after all. Although the Romulan Senate was kind of dark- it didn't need to be that dark I suppose. And I won't comment on their fashion sense. Let's just say Shinzar would fit right in with Judas Priest .

But all those issues in the last two paragraphs are minor imho. I wouldn't have loved this movie otherwise. The story is a bit weak. But so was the story of Star Trek 2 if you think about it. Plots were never the strong point of Star Trek. Characters and Star Ships were always the main focus of Star Trek. And this movie does both very well.

	18-12-2002 16:07									#79
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Well, people came after I *and* III *and* V, and those were all horrible. I think the whole thing's just running out of steam, especially with JLP back after however many years out of the series. If they try to spin off a Janeway movie I aint going, and I'm pretty loyal to the franchise so that isn't good news for them.

Maybe they can squeeze a few more bucks outta the teat by pulling a Lucas and infantilizing the whole thing. Make #1 a Huge Tribble with a lightsaber, er, phaser! Bring back Harry Mudd as a wacky, troublesome sidekick. And, you see, Wesley has this cute little son, and... oh, quick, get me my screenplay agent!

Oh yeah, and A.I. sucked so bad I swear S.S. is just screwing with us now, seeing how far he can go before he's arrested.

Last edited by Kepler on 18-12-2002 at 16:13

	18-12-2002 22:28									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Just got back a few hours ago. This movie rocks!! . I love it. Sure there are many hokey sci-fi plot devices. But I've become used to that with Star Trek. That should be nothing new. My rating? 3 1/2 stars out of 4.

A four-star rating scale is too small. I'd give it 2 out of 5.

quote: It would have been 4 stars if they had shown the actual wedding on Betazoid with full frontal nudity of Martina Sirtis . Maybe Crusher (Beverly not Wesley ), although she's put on a few years, she may have some sagging. Maybe throw in a few hot ensign bridesmades to really put this movie up and over 4 stars.

Eh.... you'd also have to see Brent Spiner and Jonathan Frakes naked. Thanks, but no thanks. I think NOT showing the Betazed wedding was probably one of the film's saving graces.

quote: Spoilers below But seriously I loved it. I did feel like this was a cinematic movie and not a 2 hour television episode (like Insurrection). True it had many resemblences to Star Trek 2. It is obvious they drew upon that movie for inspiration. But at least they stole ideas from the best movie in the series. There is lots of action. Sure there is no REAL sci-fi- but who needs that. I just want to see some ships blow each other to pieces. The ramming scene was pretty cool. And before that I liked how the bridge got a sunroof . Although it didn't look like everyone held on (esp. Picard). Same with when Data left the Enterprise later on by jumping out. Geordi didn't hold on for dear life.

They showed Geordi holding a "tricorder" (or some other remote control device that looked like an iPaq) that illustrated a two-stage shielding system that created a virtual airlock for Data to run out of. I still think the Scimitar was too far away for him to realistically reach without any kind of propulsion or directional thrusters.

quote: Also I would have liked to have more decompression sequences in the ramming (which was inevitable given the damage). But I'm nitpicking. This movie certainly cannot top #2, and probably not better than #6 (but pretty close). It's probably my third favourite Trek movie.

Close to 6? Are you MAD? Christopher Plummer's General Chang was a better villain than all the TNG bad-guys put together.

quote: Some nitpicky hokey sci-fi stuff. The emergency transport device. A bit too small for my liking. If you can trap that much energy in such a small place, couldn't they somehow get transporters working on the enterprise? Some decompression scenes I noted above could have been done a little more realistically. The fact that recent analysis says the genes have more of an important role than upbringing in defining a person. Thus the clone should not be so different. Evil is at least partially an inherited trait imho. The motive for Shinzon was pretty lame. I can't see why he would want to eliminate Earth. And exactly how did he take control over the mighty Romulin empire so easily? And don't get me started on how Shinzon is dying. There are a few others that were already mentioned in above posts.

So, basically, every major plot element in the film was hokey, but you're OK with that.

quote: I did not have a problem with the lighting as the reviewer of CNN (in the opening post) had. They did live on the dark side of the planet after all. Although the Romulan Senate was kind of dark- it didn't need to be that dark I suppose. And I won't comment on their fashion sense. Let's just say Shinzar would fit right in with Judas Priest . But all those issues in the last two paragraphs are minor imho. I wouldn't have loved this movie otherwise. The story is a bit weak. But so was the story of Star Trek 2 if you think about it. Plots were never the strong point of Star Trek. Characters and Star Ships were always the main focus of Star Trek. And this movie does both very well.

I think the battle sequences for ST:2 and 6 were much more cleverly resolved than the one in "Nemesis." As for character development, there wasn't any - unless you cound Spiner regressing his android character to an imbecile.

	19-12-2002 02:30									#81
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Well that's just my opinion. Star Trek has always been about hokey plot devices. TOS included. Great writing was never Star Trek's strong point.

Sure there was no character development, but I'm just looking at it from an action movie standpoint. The films were never going to win any oscars.

Look back to Star Trek 2 and 6. They weren't that good to begin with. I only liked them because it was the only decent space movies out there.

A day later I'm still keen on this movie. Although subsequent watchings may lessen that a bit. We'll see... I still say it is probably 4 stars out of 5. This may be scewed a bit because I'm comparing this to other star trek movies. I do this because star trek is an entity on itself. I find it hard to compare this movie to other sci-fi movies like Bladrunner or 12 monkeys. They are completely different. So compared to the other 9 films I give it 4 stars out of 5. If you don't like the star trek universe I can see giving it 2 stars.

	19-12-2002 04:32									#82
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The thing is, I am a Star Trek fan... I think they were doing great things with the TNG series (for which, I think, they prematurely pulled the plug) and have basically produced crap ever since.

"First Contact" was a pretty solid film. All the others have been weak, and they've done nothing but garbage with the assorted TV series since TNG was cancelled.

I'd like to see them just lay off any new Trek material for at least five years - ten would be better. Then maybe kick-off a new television series with some fresh ideas.

	19-12-2002 05:18									#83
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I don't know why so many reviewers disliked it, and I also don't know why it had such a poor weekend. Tickets in my town were sold out for two days straight, of course we're a college town, so that might have something to do with it.

ANd I thouroughly enjoyed Nemesis. There were a couple parts I thought were kind of odd, argo , but everything seemed allright to me.

The battle scene was definetly sweet. And there's a patch out that puts the Scimitar into Star Fleet Command 3. Yet another reason to buy this game come christmas.

	19-12-2002 13:16									#84
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FNBrown:

You consider DS9 to be crap? Why? Insofar as I'm concerned, it was slow in S1 and S2, but really picked up from S3 onward. S7 had a bit of a letdown (let's just say the whole Emissary/Prophets thing went a bit overboard, IMHO), but that's about it.

I proudly consider myself a "Niner," so to speak. And I also liked TNG and VOY.

Gatekeeper

	20-12-2002 07:39									#85
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There is one thing I think is cheesy. It is unrealistic stunts. What is this James Bond? MI2?

That scene is the dunebuggy scene when they jump into the shuttle. Data had control over the shuttle. And they had the means to stop the vehicle. Why put the shuttle out over a cliff? why not just put it on land- so they wouldn't have to attempt a dangerous jump. If their trajectory is off by just a foot they are toast.

	20-12-2002 08:24									#86
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Bah, the only Star Treck movie I ever really enjoyed (and I've seen four IIRC) is IV which is absolutely amazing

	20-12-2002 09:55									#87
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It was a OK movie.

	21-12-2002 01:23									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper FNBrown: You consider DS9 to be crap? Why? Insofar as I'm concerned, it was slow in S1 and S2, but really picked up from S3 onward. S7 had a bit of a letdown (let's just say the whole Emissary/Prophets thing went a bit overboard, IMHO), but that's about it. I proudly consider myself a "Niner," so to speak. And I also liked TNG and VOY. Gatekeeper

I believe S3 was when they imported Worf into DS9 to try to boost the series a bit.

I just never thought the whole Bajor-Cardassia thing was worth revolving an entire series around. They added the Dominion bit later on to make it interesting, but even that came across weak (I mean, shut down the wormhole, no Dominion).

Worf getting married to Jadzia never worked for me. Then they killed her off and brought in the ever-annoying Ezri. At that point, I pretty much stopped watching.

	21-12-2002 01:25									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident There is one thing I think is cheesy. It is unrealistic stunts. What is this James Bond? MI2? That scene is the dunebuggy scene when they jump into the shuttle. Data had control over the shuttle. And they had the means to stop the vehicle. Why put the shuttle out over a cliff? why not just put it on land- so they wouldn't have to attempt a dangerous jump. If their trajectory is off by just a foot they are toast.

Ugh... don't get me started on that sequence. Why the hell wouldn't they just fly the shuttle from piece to piece? They're already in violation of the prime directive by even being on the planet... why prolong the stay?

Not to mention that they couldn't film the sequence with any consistency. One minute, Picard has the goggles on, the next, they're off, then back on again.

	21-12-2002 03:59									#90
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quote: Originally posted by FNBrown I believe S3 was when they imported Worf into DS9 to try to boost the series a bit.

I think that might have been around the time they also introduced the Defiant to the series, so it wasn't strictly a space station-based series anymore. Good moves both, IMHO.

quote: I just never thought the whole Bajor-Cardassia thing was worth revolving an entire series around.

It wasn't a strictly Bajor-Cardassia series. The Klingons figured prominently into a number of storylines — especially later in the series — and the Ferengi and Romulans also showed up from time to time.

quote: They added the Dominion bit later on to make it interesting, but even that came across weak (I mean, shut down the wormhole, no Dominion).

Ah, but they *did* try to close the wormhole. Unfortunately, a Founder had infiltrated the station — specifically, Dr. Bashir had been "replaced" by a Founder — and instead of closing the wormhole, it managed to *strengthen* the wormhole and make it even more stable. The Federation no longer had any way of closing the wormhole after that point ... apparently even trilithium weapons weren't strong enough anymore (those must be the "nuclear weapons" of the Star Trek era or something).

quote: Worf getting married to Jadzia never worked for me. Then they killed her off and brought in the ever-annoying Ezri. At that point, I pretty much stopped watching.

I didn't mind the marriage at all. IMHO, the big mistake was pairing Worf and Troi off in the latter part of TNG. That was rectified after TNG ended, and Troi and Riker ended up together in NEM (predictably, perhaps, but it was the "right" ending, IMHO).

As for killing Jadzia Dax off, blame the actress. She didn't want to re-sign for a seventh season and TPTB abided by her wishes. I bet the actress wasn't expecting her character to be killed by the Pah-Wraith inhabiting Dukat's body, though. Tough luck. Anyway, the actress went on to do OK in "Becker," didn't she?

Gatekeeper