10-08-2000 10:11									#1
	Air Defense for Air Units Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Is there any good way of defending your Needlejet bombers from Interceptors (Needlejets with "Air Superiority" ability)?

Armor on a bomber is apparently just a waste of minerals, and the main reason for the use of Needlejet bombers is manuvaribility, thus making it impractical to stack air units with a ground based defender.

Still, it is exceedingly annoying to be constatly losing your expensive bombers to that idiot Marr with his Missle Interceptors... any ideas?

Decx

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Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done.

	10-08-2000 17:53									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Do it like they do in real life- escort your bombers with interceptors of your own. You'll have to armor them, so they won't be able to move as far though. Try placing an airbase closer to the target for fighters to take off from.
The problem with being attacked by Marr, unfortunately, is that it requires a big tech lead to make up for his +25% offense and the good morale. Otherwise count on losing a lot of units.

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I got my troubles
An' my troubles they got me
Ain't easy bein' an object
In a game called ZZT
-The Jazz Man

	10-08-2000 19:13									#3
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Tech levels and industrial capacity can really make a difference when it comes to building/maintaining/repairing your air forces. It seems like air forces fall victim to an expensive war of attrition unless your technology is far ahead of the enemy. It sure seems like air forces are a bit expensive to build and maintain, but nothing else provides so much projection of force with so much mobility.
Some more ideas:

> Decoys. If you don't have the "Attack Air Units" capability yet, you could use "cheap" decoy bombers with laser(2) or impact(4) weapons. These do not really need armor. Clean reactors can be of great import here. These decoys could be placed (as protection) in the spaces next to the bombers doing your main work. Since these are cheap, it won't be too much of a loss. Industrial capacity is definitely needed to pump out these throw-aways.
> Intercepting the bastards after they hit your decoys and bombers. Interceptors wait at a base close by and pounce after they enemy attacks (fixed wing aircraft have 2 turns per sortie, and are vulnerable when they sit out waiting to return to base).
> Interceptor escorts. You are right: interceptors are more expensive, and armor is expensive. The armored escort can stack with the bomber to provide cover. There are more options, especially if you want to pump out a lot more units. You can always produce cheap units and upgrade later.
> Interceptor retaliation. The interceptor can wait at the base (within range) to take out the enemy's interceptor after the enemy's interceptor attacks your bomber.
> Armor on the bomber. Yes, it is expensive, and it may not be enough to withstand multiple attacks.
> What is your target? You can specialize. Bombers that bomb enhancements (roads / mines / forests / farms) do not need to have the latest weapons. Laser(2)or Impact(4) seem to do the same damage at the same rate when bombing these targets. Of course, attacking units probably requires the latest weapons.
> Airbases. Deploy an airbase closer to the objective.
> Cities. Build a base/city closer to the objective.
> Fusion power. Cuts costs and pumps up firepower.
> Clean reactors. More expensive to build, but provide excellent long-term benefits of avoiding mineral support costs.
> Morale. Creche / Bioenhance / Aerospace Complex. Depends on how desparate the situation is. Alternate building the facility and building the unit.
> Copters. Ever consider using copters in your strike package? Requires the appropriate technology, of course. These buggers seem to be a lot cheaper, at least the copters providing Close Air Support to attack ground units. Interceptor copters (SAM) without armor seem to be cheap retaliatory assets.

	10-08-2000 19:15									#4
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Good advice. The thing with Mar is that his fighters can defeat yours unless yours have a better weapon or reactor. If you don't have better weapons than him then you can try to beat him in numbers. If you launch a big attack all in the same turn maybe he will only take out a few of your bombers. I always try to take the offense against Marr and Miriam. I try no to be on the defensive, because that is usually a loosing battle.

	11-08-2000 00:34									#5
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I was always under the impression that defending needlejets defend with their weapons rating not there armor rating making it pretty useless to put armor on a needlejet. The only circumstance where it would work was if it was attacked by a ground unit or attacked while in a base.

	11-08-2000 01:18									#6
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WE:

Exactly, that was what I thought too. Air combat ignores Armor values, making it pointless. This is the same for both Bombers and interceptors, is it not?

Mars has a lot of good ideas, but the main point i was trying to get at is how to simply avoid getting the Bombers knocked down. It does me no good If I have to constatly rebuild my own usual bombers along with decoys.

The only answer I can come up with is to simply use my own interceptors to knock down the enemy interceptors, and usually this means AFTER my bombers have been destroyed. Far from a perfect solution, but the only one i can think of.

Decx

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Chaos, panic, & disorder - my work here is done.

	11-08-2000 01:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

A bomber who is attaked outside (or inside) a base defends with its armor rating. If a bomber attacks a base with an interceptor in it the inerceptor will scramble and the bomber will attack it with its weapon rating and the interceptor will still defend with its weapons rating though I don't think the interceptor gets its +50% because it didn't initiate the attack it is actually defending, right?

Anyhow I rarely use bombers (armored or not) because choppers are a hop and a skip away and if used correctly they won't have their arse out in the wind at the end of a turn.

I imagine in MP that a gas enhanced bomber would be the way to go.

As far as keeping your bomber alive, it would seem that in this situation the best defense would be offense.

	11-08-2000 03:03									#8
	Got spare money?

A bomber will virtually always loose to a fighter, but there are ways and means.. the AI usually puts it's entire air-force into one base. Infiltrate, find the base and ideally subvert it, otherwise use gene warfare on it before sending in your choppers. Or use artillery on it, the AI seems to refuse to move damaged planes.

	11-08-2000 09:09									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Depending on the range you a working with, you can often hit their aircraft with a SAM missile rover that has a AAA defense buddy in the same square. Air units always use armor against ground SAM units so it would throw the fight to be more your way, and two silksteel AAA rovers can cover this unit out in the field. If fighting across a straight, however, this tactic will definately not work.

	12-08-2000 22:14									#10
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I think someone thought I was advocating putting armor on bombers. No, that doesn't work. It's one of those things that the game let's you do, but for no reason.

When I said to use figthers to cover your bombers I meant use fighters to COVER your bombers. Attack with the bomber and then COVER the bomber with a fighter. Don't do this against Marr or Miriam unless your fighters have a greater weapon, reactor etc...

Unless your fighters are elite it is entirely possible to loose them to bomber attack. That is to bombers with the same weapon and reactor. If the bomber has +25% offense and has two experience points more then it's even. Sporific and Nerve Gas may also play.

Here's a little trick that I do. If I can't beat the fighter. I attack a supply crawler or former outside of the base with an impact needlejet and that gets the fighter to scramble. Then I attack with my big needlejet at the base. I can also take the enemy fighter out if I have an extra fighter of my own around.

	12-08-2000 23:33									#11
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Adam Smith,
Why would you cover the bomber with a fighter? All aircraft defend with their armour value unless they 'scramble' to intercept an attacking unit.

Btw., does anyone know of a way to stop this? It annoys me when an aircraft 'defends' an AAA silksteel garrison in a base with an aerospace complex. Not good.
[This message has been edited by Simpson II (edited August 12, 2000).]

	13-08-2000 00:32									#12
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Simpson,

In fighter v. fighter combat, the weapon values are used. That's why you would escort a bomber.

	14-08-2000 02:12									#13
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Good grief, you're right! I thought I'd checked all that out before. Ah well, still things to learn..

	21-08-2000 08:55									#14
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shouldn't designating primary defender make the ack ack silksteel get hit 1st?

	21-08-2000 12:29									#15
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SimpsonII, with regards to your question about the fighters automatically scrambling (even when 90% damaged) to protect a nearby unit (especially irritating if it is an armored crawler); no, I know of no way of stopping this.

In my example above you would lose both units with little damage to the enemy fighter, since due to a bug the battle doesn't consider armor on a non-combat unit such as a crawler, if said unit is not the primary defender.

So you have two bugs - the gung-ho fighter bug and the useless armor not-primary defender bug - which in isolation are somewhat annoying, but working together they can become very annoying.

	22-08-2000 09:07									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, fighters always scramble unfortunately. I find this especially irritating when fighting factions with +25% offense and during times when the UN charter is repealed. The only thing that I know of doing is keep your fighters in a airbase with no crawlers or formers with in 2 squares.