14-12-2002 10:53									#1
	Civ-Specific Strategy: Arabs Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I am copying Dominae's thread here Since Dominae started the American thread, Im opening up a thread for the next civ in the alphabetic order. Ok people give some inputs on how you play the Arabs!



P.S Next thread: Aztecs.

	14-12-2002 17:51									#2
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well...the combination of their traits religious/expansionist is -imo- quite strange: religious is great on smaller maps where you can take over great terriotory by using your early culture...expansionist is great on large maps...so these two traits don't seem to fit. Dependant on map size/number of opponents i'd try to use one of the traits for the early game, building up some infrastructure and prebuilding lots of Horsemen. Once Chivalry is available I'll upgrade them to Ansar warriors.. IMHO one of the best UUs in the entire game and rush a couple of opponents...I know it's not a real strategy...but it always worked well...the Arabians don't really fit for an early rush due to their lack of ind/mil trait...so i'll usually wait till middle ages.

	14-12-2002 21:29									#3
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I disagree. Both Religious and Expanisonistic can be used on large maps effectively. First off, religious trait's biggest strength is not cheap temples but ability to change government quickly. This allows huge civ to maintain war whenever it is necessary. Their power comes from Super fast REXing and being able to maintain a large civ IMO. Iroqouis players should be familiar with this way of play.

Ansars are great. They are basically cheaper rider w/ -1 defense, not cheaper Knights. Since with 3 movements counterattack is less likely, the cheaper mod actually outweighs the minus defense.

	14-12-2002 21:31									#4
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Calc II, great idea! I actually didn't think to start a whole series of these threads when I did the Americans one, but it could be worthwhile. Hopefully this thread will not degenerate into a Corruption or Temple debate (my own fault, I know!).

Having never played the Arabs, I'll skip this one. But I plan to write something about the Aztecs...


Dominae

	14-12-2002 21:43									#5
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U helped me spawn off the idea. Hopefully the thread becomes awesome enough for all newbies to hear about it and go directly to the thread of their choice to learn all about their favorite civ.

	15-12-2002 00:37									#6
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Now that I think about it, Arabs are mixed style of play with iroqouis and china... in a weird way

	17-12-2002 01:31									#7
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I'm playing a game as Abu now, Emporer level. I got a great starting position: river, two wheats. And scouting quickly uncovers two more rivers nearby. Mecca makes a good settler factory. I pop a hut and get a settler within a few turns. This is a fine start! When I get bronze working a few turns later from another goody hut, I decide I will make Medina a wonder city.
When Colossus completes, it triggers my golden age! Ouch! (I probably deserved something unexpected: this start was too good!)
Does Colossus automatically trigger an Arabian Golden Age?

	17-12-2002 01:46									#8
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Yes, although it is not mentioned in Civiolpedia, Colussus is religious as well (Civilopedia states Expansionist/Commertial). Despotic GA is rather bad, but if it is early enough you may try for Pyramids or Oracle (with GA it is much easier to get them). Besides, your settler factory is much more effective now 4 food surplus with granary require some rushing (without GA) even if you build only settlers to stay 6 and under population wise.

	17-12-2002 05:28									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Now that I think about it, Arabs are mixed style of play with iroqouis and china... in a weird way

I wouldn't compare them to China at all. The Arabs are Iroquois with a knight UU.

expansionist, knight UU...

Sounds like the ultimate civ for Aeson's huge map chariot gambit!

	17-12-2002 06:10									#10
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The 2 defense for Ansars does not come into play very much because the 3 movement allow you to rush most cities at the start of war without having to stop in their territory first. They also make defending your territory easier.

	17-12-2002 06:54									#11
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yeah, i was thinking the 2 defence wouldn't matter that much considering you are retreating from everything but riders when you are using them... true you wont always get out alive but thats why they're cheaper

	17-12-2002 09:07									#12
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I don't think that 3-move units can retreat from 2-move units. I have played china a ton, and I don't recall Riders retreating from Knights. Also, MA doesn't retreat from MI.

	17-12-2002 09:12									#13
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Brizey is correct.

	18-12-2002 23:59									#14
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Strat for the Arabs = Aeson's scout and expand followed by Ansar rush.

With a little luck, these guys can use the expansionist trait to get an early tech lead, and possibly and early territory lead with a settler pop. Settler pops happen often if you follow the rules in Aeson's expansionist cookbook thread. The use of scouts to get tech lets you (1) find those horses and (2) hoard gold without falling way behind on tech.

People used the Arabs in the latest AU games and you can get the stories there. The AU game presented a tough environment for the exansionist civ caught in the middle geographically. But the Arabs generally did well.

I agree 100% that the religious trait makes them superior to China, despite China's industriousness, due to the ease with which the Arabs slip in and out of governments and the cheap temples they can build in captured ciities. (That is debatable.)

BTW, it is likely that expansionist civs are going to be very popular in human (PTW) games.

	26-12-2002 13:07									#15
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW I wouldn't compare them to China at all.

umm chinese riders?

	26-12-2002 16:39									#16
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do you really think that the Rider influences the strategy of playing with the Chinese that much? In my games its always been the combination of mil/ind. that allowed be being very agressive from the very beginning...something I couldn't imagine with the Arabs as they neither have cheap barracks nor industrious workers that boost productivity from the very beginning. I would't say they are superior to china...I like religious trait much (maybe for other reasons than many others )...but for me industrious is the best. Btw, how often do you have to change governments...even playing with Arabs I only changed once from despotism to rep....and I almost never need to change it again.

	31-12-2002 18:59									#17
	Butch'r Bak'r, Part 1 Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Alright, I've just finished playing a very satisfying game, emperor level, small map, old [edit: new] world (mountainous), dry, continents. And Abu "Butchr" Bakr dominated.
I played with a few internal varient rules for the Arabs: first build in any city founded or captured had to be a mosque (temple); and once a city reached a population of 6 a larger mosque (cathedral) had to be constructed. In fact, these buildings had to be rushed if at all possible.
My people were blessed, quickly amassing major culture. In fact, in the early stages of the game, a Babylonian city actually flipped Arab! (a first for me at this level of play).

Attachment: bakr babflip.jpg
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	31-12-2002 19:06									#18
	Butch'r Bak'r Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The second component of my strategy for Arabian splendor was conquest: my holy warriors would be the scourge of a vengeful god, smiting enemies on the battlefield, then converting citizens of captured cities by building mosques. The dominant weapon, of course, would be the ansar. I did not manage to snare horses in my first ring of cities. Capturing a source then became an urgent priority -- a command from God. "Butch'r" Bak'r's first crusade was the Horse War, against the Aztecs.

Attachment: bakr horsewar.jpg
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Last edited by Robber Baron on 31-12-2002 at 19:28

	31-12-2002 19:16									#19
	Butch'r Bak'r Increase Your PM Length

With horses in hand, I had the essential ingredients for civ mastery. I built up hordes of horsemen, and loosed them in a series of pruning wars along my borders.
I kept the strategy simple: religious builds, marketplaces in first ring cities, courthouses beyond .... horses, horses, horses. Rushed the Great Library with a leader. Once monarchy came in, I switched -- and stayed there for the rest of the game. I figured if my people were not at war, they were shirking the command of God that his word be spread.
In the midst of internecine conflict with Babylon, the City of Uruk built Sistine's Chapel. That war then became a Jihad: I resolved I would press the conflict until I had seized this affront and converted it into a mosque.

Attachment: bakr chapelgrab.jpg
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	31-12-2002 19:27									#20
	Butch'r Bak'r, Part 4 Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In the middle of the Babylonian Jihad, the Library had delivered chivalry. Wholesale upgrades of my horsemen to Ansars made my armies truly fearsome -- and with the golden age boost in production, I became the military superpower of the continent. The key here (and the roleplaying definitely helped) was to apply pressure continuously. I resisted the temptation to stop expanding and build. I think I built no more than 3 libraries, for example -- no universities. Even so, rigorously applying the mosque rule allowed my cultural expansion to keep pace with my military conquests.

Eventually other civs outpaced me in tech. But by the time they began to pull ahead, they were too small to resist my hordes of ansars. This UU is truly potent because it's cheap . I was sending swarms, and taking down large cities defended by muskets. The vikings survived long enough to field cavalry, but by then I was unstoppable.

Attachment: bakr ansartriumph.jpg
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	31-12-2002 19:37									#21
	Butch'r Bak'r Triumphant Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Our world had one civ off-continent -- the Japanese. I assembled a fleet of caravels, loaded with cavalry (the first that would ever see use -- ansars had conquered the entire home continent) and muskets.
Even as the fleet set sail, though, Allah declared victory for his chosen people.

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	31-12-2002 19:43									#22
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Post-Mortum thoughts:

1) Keep it simple. I pared down my strategic objectives to essentials: mosques, mega-mosques, ansars, and an economy to support them. This focussed strategy, coupled with relentless pressure on my AI opponents, kept the initiative in my hands.
I'm still learning how to play competitively at the emporer level, but surely one vital element of any strategy is focus. You can't have it all, so you need to choose what you can have wisely, and maximize its advantages, while being willing to forsake other tempting paths.

2) I now believe the Arabs are one of the most potent civs in the game. The ansar, built in numbers, is very effective -- not just tactically (that 3 movement is very handy) but strategically , since it's cheap to build (both in shields and resources).

3) ansars in combination with energetic mosque builds makes for a powerful one-two combo.

	31-12-2002 19:52									#23
	Nice job Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A good game and a fine report on the deeds of Bakr! :b

The thing that caught me was the game time. Conquering your whole continent and managing swarms of ansars, and you got domination victory in 10 hrs. I can't get to Monarchy within 10 hours :P
(Heck, my last TWO turns in my latest game together took 11 hrs - but that's modern era and I'm in "deep", a 5CC deity game whose ongoing tale is over at CF Stories forum)

Then you gave your tip of keep it simple and stay focused, and that seemed a good reason for the speed.

I've not gotten to Ansars yet in my Arab game. When I played Mongols though, I found the death rate from counterattacks appalling. Cheap units were nice, but they were getting mowed down in far greater quantities than Knights. Perhaps the greater speed of the Ansars kept them from facing counterattacks as often?

Charis

	31-12-2002 20:09									#24
	Re: Nice job Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Charis Cheap units were nice, but they were getting mowed down in far greater quantities than Knights. Perhaps the greater speed of the Ansars kept them from facing counterattacks as often?

Definitely. They are like Cavalry in this regard. You can move, attack, and retreat if you need to, even if you win the battle. Another nice thing about them is the ability to reach far into enemy territory on the first turn of a war. They can reach established cities even though they have the two square culture radius and attack them on the same turn... very potent. Need to cut off a resource that's a couple squares in? No problem - send in an Ansar. It's also nice moving onto a hill and still having a movement point available - great for scouting out enemy units to direct your other Ansars. True, the defense can be problematic, but with careful planning you can usually get to a hill or forest or behind a river (or some combination of the above) to end your move, thus increasing your defense.

If you can't tell, I'm having a great time with them.

	31-12-2002 20:21									#25
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Charis:
re 10 hrs.... I know, it was a very short game. Partly because (and I think I failed to note this above) I played on a small map with only 5 opponents. And partly because my mm was admittedly messy.
re counterattacks .... On relfection, I think under other circumstances the ansars' low defense might have been costly. In this game, as things turned out, the aztecs lost their horse (to me) early; the ottomans I whittled down before knights or sipahi were available, and the vikings used knights/cavalry sporadically and to little effect -- perhaps because they concentrated on berserkers? I saw a lot of zerks. Slow, stout creatures they were, huffing and puffing as they lugged their big axes. My ansars swept across the battlefields and picked them off easily
Now, many ansars did fall (gratefully, of course, martyred to their Lord). But I made up my losses handily.
Under different circumstances, though, against different foes, I probably would have taken a lot more casualities.

Stuie: nice points: ansars do indeed make lethal pillagers, and prime scouts, and they do manage to get to defensible positions much more easily than other, slower units.

	31-12-2002 21:44									#26
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Yes, since you've built it, try to build the Pyraimds while your in your GA.

Colosus trigures the GA for Irq, Arabia, India, and England.

quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron I'm playing a game as Abu now, Emporer level. I got a great starting position: river, two wheats. And scouting quickly uncovers two more rivers nearby. Mecca makes a good settler factory. I pop a hut and get a settler within a few turns. This is a fine start! When I get bronze working a few turns later from another goody hut, I decide I will make Medina a wonder city. When Colossus completes, it triggers my golden age! Ouch! (I probably deserved something unexpected: this start was too good!) Does Colossus automatically trigger an Arabian Golden Age?

	31-12-2002 22:23									#27
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Off-topic, btw, but that 5CC game Charis refers to makes for great reading: a Civ3 infotainment epic of truly heroic proportions! We're talking a deity game, bidding for a conquest victory, with only 5 cities! And an ancient era UU/golden age to boot!
Check it out: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...?threadid=40040

	03-01-2003 04:03									#28
	Great Idea Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'll look foreward to hearing what other people have done with all the combo's. I give you my input when we get to a civ I've played, I've only tried about five so far, I'm partial to Industrial and religeous traits.

	03-01-2003 04:46									#29
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On Emperor level with tiny maps:

France: 3 wars against English (Warriors, Horse Men, and Knights) to knock them off my contienant to gain sole control. Game won via Space Race. (A couple of wars against the Russians)

China: Peacefully expanded to 10 cities, 5 river sites, and all but 2 coastal. Didn't fight Japan on my same landmass all game. I did fight a late game war against the Aztecs and took over that entire contienant. Game still ended in a Space Ship victory. (Most Aztec cities were razed and I didn't get around to replacing several of the cities)

Aztecs: Peacefully REXed out to get sole control of the river between me and the Irq. Built lots of Jag Warriors until even under Despotism I was paying maintenance on them. 3 cities in 2 smaller landmasses estiablished just to increase # units I could support. Several Horse Men built following switch to Republic. All of this was simply to insure the peace while the Irq Mounted Warrior was powerful. Afterwords, spent the rest of the middle ages building up my economy including the FP. (Upgrading the Horsemen to Knights and later Calvary.) During the age of defense, the Irqouis attacked me. I drafted a citizen in every city in my empire, upgraded all defenders to Infentry, and sent all military units on the mainland to the two border cities, leaving all others empty. Irqouis Calvary charge broke against my Infentry, but the Irq then sent waves of Riflemen and Infentry in.

2 Military units sent to one slightly further out city, with all others kept devoid of units. AI decided to march next to my 15 unit pop 13 city and keep moving south. When the AI got 2 tiles away from the cloest empty city, a short stack of 6 units sent there. AI decided to move further south thru the jungle outside all Citry Radius.
In the mean time, a few Artilerry units finished completion and a few Irq units outside stacks got weakend enough via bombardment for my Calvary to rush in, finish them off, and return to safety.
Evenually the Irq called up and asked for peace in exchange for 24 of my workers. I counter offered that the Irq give me St Louis & 7 GPT for peace, which they accepted. I then spent the next several turns watching the Irq march back home. Just prior to me getting Tanks, the Egyptains demanded Atomic Theory. I refused and they declared war. I landed 5 Elite Calvary, 2 Elite Infentry, and 1 Vetran Tank onto the island which we shared and sacked the city with 2 Elite Calvary with no losses. (After a bombardment the same turn from the Battleship escort.) I then reloaded the transport and picked up the Egyptian city in the island they shared with the Irq, accomplishing all my military goals, but I need to wait a for more turns before they'll talk. (I'm building tanks, but have far too few for a mainland invasion of Egypt: they are on the same landmass as me, but the Irq own a 2 tile bottleneck between the Egyptians and myself. The Americans were just wiped out by the Egyptains)