14-12-2002 17:03									#1
	Who EU left behind Support Apolyton

Yours truly, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia and Macedonia, Albania.


And we were supposed to enter EU at least twice before, first time when Yugoslavia was invited as a whole (but wanted to stay Nonaligned) and second time when it broke apart, and it was expected we will join EU in a matter of years.


Now its matter of decades.


Over ten years after the breakup of commie block we still havent joined. Other countries which were far behind us in all aspects, economic, social, everything, have now surpased us.


Now for the horror part. Croatia plans to submit the official application to become a member sometime in 2003. During Greek presidency of EU Given that Greeks enthusiasitcaly supported the Serbs in the latest war(s), we expect a sabotage.


Croatia is trying to somehow get in as soon as possible, not waiting for the other countries in the region. EU is forcing 'regional integration' with Bosnia, Serbia etc before they take us in as a package.


They could at least have given us Euro 2008 to compensate




We want something dammit!

Or else we will join NAFTA together with Turkey

	14-12-2002 17:04									#2
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Join EFTA with the Swiss and Norwegians.

	14-12-2002 17:05									#3
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We love you all Vetty Expect the warmest of reception of your EU application during the Greek presidency

	14-12-2002 17:06									#4
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BTW Bulgaria Romania in 2007.

	14-12-2002 17:10									#5
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Italy is up after Greece. Maybe you'll have more luck with them

	14-12-2002 17:14									#6
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Seing as Berlusconi has been pissing all over Croatia since he came to term, I doubt it.

Seriously though, why would anyone care?

But you're propably getting in together with Serbia ("package" solution) unless something changes IMHO.

	14-12-2002 17:18									#7
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Ireland, for sure then.

Whose next after that? Netherlands? Then Portugal?

Who do you fancy helping you Vet, and how long can you wait..

	14-12-2002 17:23									#8
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We can allow Albania in right now BTW.

The whole country's population is already in Greece and Italy.

	14-12-2002 17:31									#9
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not sure about the exact situation of the 10 new countries(except Cyprus), but arent the countries you mentioned in a TERRIBLE economic situation after the wars? and isnt currently a huge instability in Serbia and Montenegro with their elections?

if this was a "lets troll the greeks" thread, congrats

	14-12-2002 17:34									#10
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That's why you shouldn't do wars

Look at us. We're selling our copyrighted feta to Israel.

	14-12-2002 20:23									#11
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Ah we will probably go together with teh Turks (never) unless Germans and Austrians do something :shrugs:

	15-12-2002 07:11									#12
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quote: Who do you fancy helping you Vet, and how long can you wait

Italy and Austria are our biggest supporters now

and so will be Slovenia, which doesnt want to be a border state in EU.

Man are they going to show off with the membership

btw. Jorg Haider also supports us. With friends like that...

Further north things are not so good, culminating in Britain I believe who seem openly hostile (insisting on the hague etc)
Greece OTOH is friendly on the face but when we find a knife in the back we will know where it came from

How long can we wait? I dont know. We are like that guy in every class who had great potential but did too much drugs ... we blame it on society (but we can change, we can change... )

quote: not sure about the exact situation of the 10 new countries(except Cyprus), but arent the countries you mentioned in a TERRIBLE economic situation after the wars?

economy isnt even the issue here.

yes it is pretty bad. But not worse then Bulgaria and Romania for sure. I m lazy to check the exact figures but I think Croatia has larger per capita GDP then both

the issues they want us to work on is general democratization, minority rights and hague cooperation, which is alltogether bollocks

quote: and isnt currently a huge instability in Serbia and Montenegro with their elections?

yes, serbs fail to elect a president in two attempts

	15-12-2002 07:22									#13
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quote: We love you all Vetty Expect the warmest of reception of your EU application during the Greek presidency

quote: We can allow Albania in right now BTW. The whole country's population is already in Greece and Italy.

also they have virtually no heavy industry and they have very developed human services industry and trade in certain goods.. they are ready for the new economy

	15-12-2002 07:29									#14
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I know way too little about these countries and their relations to others, but I think they are very unstable and have lots of problems.. I'd like to see them in EU though, but that should not mean EU has to (meaning mostly me, I'm selfish bastard ) pay loads of money only to see little developing of these areas.
EU is not something to be pushed and poked around, or indeed it's not something that can be demanded to do anything.

The bigger EU gets, more problems. Bigger EU gets, we once again get to be the smallest country and power over EU diminishes with every new member. So when I look at it,, well it's not good. So, the way I see it, when country joins in, it should be able to give something in able to receieve. Two way relationship. But if country is doing ok, or at least is going to the right direction, then sure.. but everytime new country with not so wealthy country joins, it means less money for me, and as I'm broke already.. well I don't necessarily jump in joy .

	15-12-2002 07:33									#15
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On the other hand, if we could establish genuinely warm relations, make EU close and tight and truly open borders and make it a real union.. then it should be good. I don't believe this is true even with in the present members. I'm afraid some day EU gets too big and all it's good for is fighting each other and nothing gets done, but blaming and shouting and vetoing others.
Let's get good things going on, and let's get all in so that EU countries survives economically wealthy, so they don't have to suffer when new ones join.. it could be a good thing! By this time we would need that army fast, and I can see it being very powerful and good, but that takes time too, so it can blend in and make the new system working.

	15-12-2002 07:35									#16
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If there is a place that's worse to be than in the EU, it's to be an ex-Yugoslavian state.

Stupid Yugos! You gave your future a big kick in the groin with that war...

Greek capitalists want the Balkans in the EU for many reasons:

1. That will shape up your law enforcement and reduce corruption spillover.
2. Our money will be free to be invested in the area and our products to be sold, tariff-free.
3. We will cease being in the bloody corner of the map (Finns know what I'm talking about)

The greek citizens are rather sceptic about it because:
1. We are going to start paying up the bill, instead of getting paid.
2. Our agriculture will take a hit, through harsh competition with the neighbouring countries.
3. The amount of foreigners will increase and that spurs xenophobia.

	15-12-2002 07:41									#17
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I'm still thinking EU is a good thing and it has very much potential.. but I'm thinking about more locally what it means to me. For example crimes. I live in a country that is almost free of crimes. We have low crime rate, and punishment is also very mild. So if I was criminal, my mind would thing 'Hmm.. there is this country which doesn't have competition, lots of money for us to make and take! And even if we get caught, we get so mild punishment, we will be out in no time, LET'S GO TO FINLAND!'. We will defend ourselves with fury and determination!

	15-12-2002 07:41									#18
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I understand you feel like not giving money away Pekka

But europe is one economic area and even one cultural area. Every nation in it holds european union as a noble ideal, and none should be prevented from achieving it.

There are big differences between us ofcourse. Finland was I think first on Transparency international list of least corrupt countries, while Croatia holds a not so great position

I would also feel bad giving my development money to a corrupt country

But its not all about the money. Its about equalising the starting chances for the citizens, making up for lost time. Poland didnt choose to be in the eastern bloc. You all have a 50 years head start on us it is only fair you help us.

And trust me, money is not the biggest issue. I even read Slovenia and maybe Chech republic may be a net money contributers even in the first years

	15-12-2002 07:43									#19
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Come to NAFTA...we will stretch the definition of North America.

	15-12-2002 07:46									#20
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quote: 'Hmm.. there is this country which doesn't have competition, lots of money for us to make and take! And even if we get caught, we get so mild punishment, we will be out in no time, LET'S GO TO FINLAND!'. We will defend ourselves with fury and determination!

I sympathse with you. But not only crime, social benefits. Just think, Sweden gives more money in benefits to the unemployed then my college educated father earns here. Tempting

	15-12-2002 07:48									#21
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quote: Come to NAFTA...we will stretch the definition of North America.

can we bring Turkey?

btw havent seen that sub in a long time...

	15-12-2002 07:48									#22
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VetLegion, Yeah, I agree with you. That's why I think you guys (and Turkey) should get in at some point, but not too late either. It would help some countries out very much, and EU would get something back eventually. There are millions of people in these areas that need to get this done, so they can start living 'normal' lives.

I saw program, it was from Turkey where there was this big modern car factory... but the people got paid the fifth(!) of the normal salary here for the same job. Now there's gotta be something wrong in that. When they join EU, these things could be slowly repaired.

Also in Balcans.. them getting into EU would stabilize the area pretty good. And that's a good thing. And that shouldn't be about money either.
So yes, I think EU should get even more members, from Balcans, Turkey etc. Also they shouldn't be able to have to wait 20 years for this to happen..
We should just think hard how we can do this in best way, so we can ensure everything really goes well and the right people will benefit (and not criminals, or corrupted people). It will happen.. eventually it will happen.


.. and then we start conquering ME, and Asia..

	15-12-2002 07:52									#23
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VetLegion, wow that sucks! There are also tons of educated people, and their knowledge could be harnessed.. and good workers too. The rest can join our army, or be shot .
That would be good thing, it woudl open borders, so for example your father could come here and earn decent living, or others come here to study.. also lots of work done in Balkans too, so we could go over there, if the salaries are of course stabilized .

	15-12-2002 07:54									#24
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quote: 1. That will shape up your law enforcement and reduce corruption spillover.

we will never ban computer games!

quote: 2. Our money will be free to be invested in the area and our products to be sold, tariff- free.

you produce something except tourism and olives?

quote: 3. We will cease being in the bloody corner of the map (Finns know what I'm talking about)

plus we will build a highway through Croatia, Montenegro, Albania to Greece

quote: 1. We are going to start paying up the bill, instead of getting paid.

it had to come one day

quote: 2. Our agriculture will take a hit, through harsh competition with the neighbouring countries.

yep. Croatian olives are better

quote: 3. The amount of foreigners will increase and that spurs xenophobia.

from the north balkans to Greece? You are not exactly the mecca for us

just the Albanians I think, and you got used to them

	15-12-2002 08:06									#25
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quote: That would be good thing, it woudl open borders, so for example your father could come here and earn decent living

I was just joking about moving. We are not USA. People here do not leave their home behind lightly... and since we are not exactly starving..

I assure you, if the borders open, there will not be big packing of tents and moving north. On the contrary, since we have the last clean part of mediteranean here, and great climate we may see the number of Finns increase

quote: or others come here to study..

studying abroad is cool




btw, you mentioned how to help and not send money to corrupt politicans. Help with judicial system is very important. We have laws and courts but they are overworked and cases mount up and they are corrupt and inneficient. It is very important that you can depend on rule of the law to resolve your disputes.. that automaticaly help economy and all other sectors

So the European court in Strassbourg is a great thing for example. It helps countries with problems by forcing them to improve courts. Lots of cases from Greece, Turkey, Croatia... go there when nothing else works.

	15-12-2002 08:12									#26
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Turkey can come in if I get a hawty to look after me.

Need some feta cheese and olives also...to bribe me. (I love Turk/Croatian food)

	15-12-2002 08:14									#27
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I'm not even expecting that. I think majority of people wants to stay where their homes are, and build their countries. But it would open new opportunities to them who wants it. And yes, we'd be right there on your beaches, drinking too much, making noise and trashing places until you have had enough with us and kick us out .

	15-12-2002 08:24									#28
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Nah, Finns and Croats would come to terms easily. You are one of our roll models actually

Btw.. complaining about tourists.. I read one guy here reported his own wife to police for renting rooms. apparently, tourists in them played cards at 2 PM (yes, P) and it disturbed his sleep

	15-12-2002 08:27									#29
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Greece (not EU, GREECE) is giving away 550 million euros for Balkans reconstruction and all I got was this lousy T-thread.

	15-12-2002 08:29									#30
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Yeah, we would. I think we are pretty much same kind of people and all. But you guys must have it pretty bad if you like us in that way! You should know we can't take compliments, we freeze and don't know what to do. Just some cultural hints. Best way to complement a finn is not to say anything, and if he does badly, then swear a lot and hit him.

Ohhh I can't hold it anymore, EU must welcome Balkans now. NOW NOW NOW!