14-12-2002 20:57									#1
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Hi, I'm half-German, so don't expect this to be unbiased.

The Germans are scientific and militaristic.
The French are industrial and commercial.

How is it that the Germans CAN'T be industrial? That's pretty self-explanitory. I think one could also make a good argument that the Germans are also more of a "commercial" people than the French as well.

Next, the aggression rate. Germans are maxed out at 5, and the French are bottomed out at 1. COME ON! 40 years ago the French still had colonies and their military spending is way past Germany in relations to GDP% (Gross Domestic Product). Also, and this could start some debates, but it's true, France was the one to declare war on Germany first in BOTH World Wars. I'm not saying that the French are more aggressive, just that they shouldn't be on opposite ends of the aggression chart.

Third, I almost feel that having Napolean as one of the Great Leaders would be like having Hitler for Germany. If anyone knows anything about Nostradamus (he's French, too) then you'd know that while Hitler was the second anti-Christ, Napolean was the first (there is a third, Mabus, but that's another story).

I'm sure you can tell I'm part German by now. I have, however, enjoyed the great progression these two countries have undergone in the past decades (the Franco-German motor pushing European integration, damn, how cool is that, or is that just me?).

Finally, I'd quickly like to comment that the two greatest leaders in French history were a 17 year old girl who thought God was talking to her and a little whiny guy with an inferiority complex.

Hmm...that's a lot to type... maybe now I can look forward to some hate mail.

	14-12-2002 22:32									#2
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this game was made by americans

Jon Miller

	14-12-2002 22:48									#3
	Re: France better than Germany? Remove this text

bobbo,

That's what the editor's for.

quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 Next, the aggression rate. Germans are maxed out at 5, and the French are bottomed out at 1. COME ON! 40 years ago the French still had colonies and their military spending is way past Germany in relations to GDP% (Gross Domestic Product). Also, and this could start some debates, but it's true, France was the one to declare war on Germany first in BOTH World Wars. I'm not saying that the French are more aggressive, just that they shouldn't be on opposite ends of the aggression chart.

Yes, I think this can start many debates, but the two things I want to say are: Germany had colonies till the treaty of Versailles took them away and though the French may spend more on their military, we saw what happened to their military during WWII.

	14-12-2002 23:13									#4
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youre basing industrial trait on modern industrialism but france built up its nation on cottage industries, crafts, and workshops and much of them either by bourgeoise or govt sponsored mercantilist programs (J.-B. Colbert).
btw, France had a right to alsace-lorraine and Germans are big poopooheads. also, Austria > Germany . most of the great intellectuals and historically important leaders from the area were Austrians ; Freud, Wittgenstein, Wagner, Makart, Hitler,etc some others were german but few
Germany was always a culturally barren wasteland

sorry for making fun of your people .im sorry

	14-12-2002 23:25									#5
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btw its also ridiculous to say france was more miltaristic than germany just because they declared war first in those cases , had colonies and large armies (like britain did), etc. its really grabbing at odds. first germany originally was composed of many cultures which in the middle ages were almost instituted on the pomp of the military and court, like prussia. then felt to constant war by princes in the german states, when it built itself up by war then by otto von bismark threatened other states like france. and i would argue , despite what some historians say today, pushed europe into world war I. i would argue this not because of who declared war first , but what was happening in the background prior to the beginning of the war, germany coaxing other nations into taking agressive stances that they knew would bring on war, the leaders of the country talking about taking over europe making the balkans economic colonies, crushing france, taking over britains empire, etc. so there is good evidence that germany just grown desiring to be a major power pulled everyone into WWI

	14-12-2002 23:29									#6
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and alo i should note that the modern industrial state of germany was only formed through military control or cooperation , germany as an industrial state today is a type of military - industrial complex.


btw it doesnt matter that americans wrote the game a large amount of americans are part german

	15-12-2002 01:14									#7
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quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro and alo i should note that the modern industrial state of germany was only formed through military control or cooperation , germany as an industrial state today is a type of military - industrial complex.

Germany today was not formed through military control but through projects rebuilding it from WWII. It has not had a major war since WWII.

quote: btw it doesnt matter that americans wrote the game a large amount of americans are part german

Not really. Just as many Americans are half French.

	15-12-2002 01:20									#8
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Germany in the game is based on mainly it's WWII accomplishments.
Scientific(first jet aircraft, first rocket, and an Atomic program) and Militaristic(taking on most of the world) and their UU, the Panzer.

So when Americans look on Germany, they get a vision of fierce conquerers overrunning the French. Hence the aggression levels.

	15-12-2002 01:26									#9
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apeking

yeah i made a mistake saying germany today , but i meant modern germany before destruction.,
but germanys culture has had a history of military tradition , militarism , etc. france has had wars but for different reasons and their culture was less sustained in that way.

	15-12-2002 01:48									#10
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Frances moto is "we give up" the germans are a way better civ....

and i love germany as a culture and country way more so than france and i am part french

	15-12-2002 03:01									#11
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WWI: Heir to Austrian throne assassinated. Austria-Hungary goes to move into Serbia, Russia, not wanting to lose further interest in the Balkans, mobilizes its forces against Austria-Hungary AND Germany. Austria-Hungary and Germany then, obviously, go to war with Russia. France then sides with Russia in declaring war against Germany and Britain then follows suit. You can say all of the little things you want, but war did not have to be declared.

WWII: Even British and French officials walked out after reading the terms of the treaty of Versailles. Nearly everyone at the time knew that the treaty would directly lead to another war.

I'm by no means saying that Germany isn't an aggressive country, nor am I saying that France is more aggressive than Germany, which someone misread.

"youre basing industrial trait on modern industrialism"

yup, the game is also basing Russia's "scientific" trait on modern times, too, obviously.

"France had a right to alsace-lorraine"

and I never said they didn't. It was annexed, which has happened at the end of many wars, not just the Franco-Prussian one.

"Austria > Germany"

If you want to seperate them, then I actually am AUSTRIAN. We, as in my family, don't like to distinguish between the German speaking people, as it is rather feudal (as are nationalities at a whole, sometimes, so we are very big supporters of the E.U.).

"[Germany] had colonies and large armies"

Compare the amount of German colonies with France (which had nearly all of north Africa) and Britain (1/4 of the world's landmass at one point). The entire concept of Imperialism is horrible and it's too bad America is picking it up.

"btw it doesnt matter that americans wrote the game a large amount of americans are part german"

unfortunately I think it does somewhat. Many Americans consider themselves just Americans now. A lot of the Americans who are part German are also part French, among countless other things (*cough*damn irish*cough*).

"germany as an industrial state today is a type of military - industrial complex."

I'm gonna agree with apes when I say that Germany today isn't exactly big on military, with 1.5% of GDP, compared to 3% of the U.S. (NATO requests all nations be 2%).

"but germanys culture has had a history of military tradition , militarism , etc. france has had wars but for different reasons and their culture was less sustained in that way."

and just how much more of a military history has Germany had as opposed to France?

On a side note, I'm in French 1 and German 2, but was planning to go to France this summer on the class trip.

	15-12-2002 10:43									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes Germany in the game is based on mainly it's WWII accomplishments. Scientific(first jet aircraft, first rocket, and an Atomic program) and Militaristic(taking on most of the world) and their UU, the Panzer. So when Americans look on Germany, they get a vision of fierce conquerers overrunning the French. Hence the aggression levels.

Germany has attacked France three times in the past 150 years. Twice in the last 90. Would you like to say that Germany has not been a bunch of fierce conquerers overunning the French?

	15-12-2002 10:51									#13
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "youre basing industrial trait on modern industrialism" yup, the game is also basing Russia's "scientific" trait on modern times, too, obviously.

Yes, but Germany wasn't powerful in modern times, unlike Russia. It was powerful in the 30s and 40s. Saying that Germany shoudn't be Militaristic or have a high aggression level is like saying that Egypt isn't industrious anymore so it shouldn't have the industrious trait.

	15-12-2002 12:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 Hi, I'm half-German, so don't expect this to be unbiased. The Germans are scientific and militaristic. The French are industrial and commercial. How is it that the Germans CAN'T be industrial?

Because it's already scientific and militaristic

	15-12-2002 12:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kingof the Apes Germany today was not formed through military control but through projects rebuilding it from WWII. It has not had a major war since WWII.

Yes but it was the military-industrial complex that brought them into WWII, and also gave them the expertise to rebuild their country.

	15-12-2002 18:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 The Germans are scientific and militaristic. The French are industrial and commercial.

The problem with the civs that still exist in the real world is that they have enough history to have had different characteristics at different times.

Firaxis seems to have picked one era and based the traits and the UU on that era. Germans have the Panzer UU so their traits fit the WWII era (trying to take over Europe and best scientific establishment on the planet -- check). France has the Musketeer and fits Sun King/Revolution period (cottage industry and mercantilism -- check).

Similarly, there's the Japanese. I don't think anyone would consider the current nation of Japan to be militaristic, but the Samurai era Japan certainly was. If you did a modern Japan civ, they'd probably be Sci/Ind instead of Mil/Rel. No idea what the UU would be though.

solodar

	15-12-2002 19:24									#17
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Compare the Germans and the Chinese. See anything strange?

	15-12-2002 19:36									#18
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France kicks arse

	15-12-2002 19:56									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Germany has attacked France three times in the past 150 years. Twice in the last 90. Would you like to say that Germany has not been a bunch of fierce conquerers overunning the French?

Yea, but twice in the past 90 years it have been the French, who declared war. They should have said: "We declare war, but please please please don't attack us, we're French!" May be this had helped.

	15-12-2002 20:26									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Compare the Germans and the Chinese. See anything strange?

Exactly, If you switch them, it would make much more sense.

	15-12-2002 22:07									#21
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"Germany has attacked France three times in the past 150 years"

maybe you're missing the point but on all three occasions France declared war on Germany first.

"Germany wasn't powerful in modern times"

Germany is the second largest exporter in the world and has the third largest economy. Also, if anyone cares to know, Germany has the most troops overseas in the world except for the U.S.

"Egypt isn't industrious anymore"

Just how industrious was Egypt?

"Because it's already scientific and militaristic"

which is why I think there shouldn't have to be exactly two traits. Or maybe they should have more than 6 possible, but this is a whole other thing.

"Yes but it was the military-industrial complex that brought them into WWII, and also gave them the expertise to rebuild their country"

I don't know if you can credit that to the military, though.

"The problem with the civs that still exist in the real world is that they have enough history to have had different characteristics at different times."

Basically. So any time they choose is going to offend somebody out there.

"Compare the Germans and the Chinese. See anything strange?"

Umm...they're both countries?

	15-12-2002 23:56									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Germany has attacked France three times in the past 150 years. Twice in the last 90. Would you like to say that Germany has not been a bunch of fierce conquerers overunning the French?

All three times, France declared war first. All three times, they did so out of arrogance that they were better than the Germans and could take them down. All three times, their arrogance bit them on the butt.

	16-12-2002 00:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by brianshapiro France had a right to alsace-lorraine and Germans are big poopooheads.

France had no more a right to Alsace-Lorraine than the Germans did. One could easily argue that Napoleon's annexation of what had been a traditional German state and part of the Holy Roman Empire was wrong. It's predominantly German population at the time of the Franco-Prussian war certainly didn't feel France had a "right" to their territory.

quote: also, Austria > Germany most of the great intellectuals and historically important leaders from the area were Austrians ; Freud, Wittgenstein, Wagner, Makart, Hitler,etc some others were german but few Germany was always a culturally barren wasteland

What a crock of ****. First, in the game it is reasonable to say "Germans" refers to all the German states, including Austria. Second, Wagner wasn't Austrian, he was born in Leipzig and spent his life in Germany, not Austria. Third, you've neglected a massive number of German artists, thinkers, scientists, composers, etc. who weren't Austrian. Saying it was culturally barren is patently false. Here's just a few names:

Writers/Artists:

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Friedrich Schiller
Novalis
Friedrich von Schlegel
The Brothers Grimm
Albrecht Durer
Thomas Mann
Bertold Brecht

Composers/Musicians:

Johann Sebastian Bach (and his family)
Georg Frederic Handel
Franz Liszt
Felix Mendelssohn
Robert Schumann
Carl Maria von Weber
Johannes Brahms
Richard Strauss
Hugo Wolf
Carl Orff
Wilhelm Furtwangler
Otto Klemperer
Bruno Walter
Felix Weingartner

Philosophers/Mathematicians:

Georg W.F. Hegel
Karl Marx
Wilhelm Leibniz
Friedrich Nietzsche
Arthur Schopenhauer
Immanuel Kant
Martin Heidigger
Albert Einstein
Victor Weisskopf

Inventors/Scientists:

Johannes Gutenburg
Nicolaus Otto
Karl Braun
Gottlieb Daimler
Rudolf Diesel
Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit
Heinrich Geissler
Karl Benz
Heinrich Hertz
Felix Hoffmann
Charles Proteus Steinmetz
Werner von Siemens
Graf Ferdinand von Zeppelin
Konrad Zuse
Wernher von Braun

An incomplete list. And that's not enumerating the German political and military leaders, like Bismarck, Frederick the Great, Barbarossa, Otto the Great, etc.

	16-12-2002 00:44									#24
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "Because it's already scientific and militaristic" which is why I think there shouldn't have to be exactly two traits. Or maybe they should have more than 6 possible, but this is a whole other thing.

Well, you can give Germany as many of the 6 possible traits as you want via the editor. You can give all the civs whatever traits you desire and adjust the aggressiveness levels.

	16-12-2002 00:51									#25
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I think people are not loking at what these traits truly represent when thinking of this discussion.

Comercial trait does not only mean cheap banks and markets, it aso means the ablity to create lare empires with less corruption, ie. oversea's empires. France's history as an economic power in Europe, and its history of commercial empire both make Comercial a understanable trait.

As for Industrial: as someone has stated earlier, industrial seems to apply more not to 'modern industry', but to the great projects of engineers and builders of the past. The French were great Medieval engineers, and this trend continued into the presen: think of the Suez Canal (frenh built) and the Panama Canal (the french started it, another industrious civ. finished it).

As for the Germans: German's have been a cultural group more than any one state (as Germany is the youngest state in the game [1871]), so thinking of German traits from the history of Wilhemine and after Germany is not fuly accurate.

Now, Militarist seems to indicate a culture of the warrior, which is why the Jaanese and Aztecs and Zulus' ahe this trait, as a warrior culture was very important. NOw, a militarist culture does apply to modern germany, but you also have the cuture of war of the innital germanic warriors, and alo groups like the Teutonic Knights and their campaigns into the East in the 1200's.

As for Scientific..well, perhas one can argue. The Germans not only had a top notch scientific establishment in the late 1800's and first half of 1900's, but think of their great university system, and all the many great German sicientists from the past and early century trained at German universities.

I think the most glaring mix up of traits is the Chinese/Roman/Persian mixup.

China should be industrious/scientific, Rome should be industrious/militaristic and Persia shoul be Militaristic/commercial.

	16-12-2002 01:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Comercial trait does not only mean cheap banks and markets, ...

The commercial trait doesn't reduce the cost of markets and banks. It would be too powerful if it did.

	16-12-2002 02:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by solodar The problem with the civs that still exist in the real world is that they have enough history to have had different characteristics at different times. Firaxis seems to have picked one era and based the traits and the UU on that era. Germans have the Panzer UU so their traits fit the WWII era (trying to take over Europe and best scientific establishment on the planet -- check). France has the Musketeer and fits Sun King/Revolution period (cottage industry and mercantilism -- check). solodar

I think Solodar said it best. UU and traits affected to a particular civ seem to reflect a same historical period.

As far as France declaring war on Germany all the time, I do agree that France did it. However, these wars had been prepared and made inevitable by the actions and ambitions of Germany I believe.
Yes, France did declare war in 1939... after Germany had taken over Austria, the Sudetes and was sarting to gobble Poland. Who really was the agressor in this case? In civ III, we would call it being drawn in by an MPP...

These wars were fought for the same reasons we fight them in civ III: aquisition of lebensraum, ressources and to gain a definite advantage over your immediate competitors. Throughout the second millenium Europe was almost constantly at war to preserve a "balance of power", with alliances shifting back and forth to prevent one country from achieving a decisive advantage. The franco-german wars fit exactly in this picture.

Finally, I couldn't help but notice all these comments aimed at the lack of French prowess on the battlefield in WW2... I would like to remind the people making these comments to realize the disparity of force between the 2 countries before getting to quick conclusions... At the time, Germany had about twice the population of France and the same advantage in industrial production. When French military planners recognized the continued threat posed by an aggressive Germany in the early 1920s they had to find a way to reestablish parity. The Maginot line was their answer, its rationale being that fortifications and artillery would bring a much needed advantage/equalizer to the outnumbered and outgunned French soldiers. In the spirit of measure/countermeasure competition, the Germans realized they needed a way to negate this equilibrium brought about by the Maginot line. They had 15 years to think about it and they came up with a military answer with Panzers, Stukas and the Blitzkriege. Notably, they also had a diplomatic component to their strategy since they trashed the neutrality of Belgium and the Netherlands.
Did we lose? No... we were more exactly routed, destroyed, eviscerated, and so on...

But what would YOU have done better in a similar situation in Civ III? Remember that you can't aquire techs easily, that you can't do Rope rape, set-up MPPs with every civ on the planet, and that your adversary is not a predictable AI. Furthermore, he is in his GA, with a great UU, and has been mobilizing for a while. Waiting to hear a lentghy strategy, not a quick derogatory comment, Thanks.

Last thing: I agree with the original poster in that European integration is just great, and I support it wholeheartedly.

	16-12-2002 03:21									#28
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hmm... I'm getting support at the time, intelligent support at that. Whereas I didn't know all of the people listed by Boris, I felt the "barren wasteland" would be regected by anyone of any intelligence (it's nice to see the names, though).

"think of... the Panama Canal"

you mean the one the French failed at?

"so thinking of German traits from the history of Wilhemine and after Germany is not fuly accurate."

I think it basically is. The game starts at 4000 B.C., and I don't exactly think that there were Englishman walking arouond discovering the wheel.

"As for Scientific..well, perhas one can argue"

Do you mean against? I think possibly the Germans have done more in America than America has. Keep in mind our old Nazi buddy von Braun and his team made the moon landing possible.

"China should be industrious/scientific, Rome should be industrious/militaristic and Persia shoul be Militaristic/commercial."

China maybe not so scientific in the past 1000 years. Rome could be a lot of things, and I feel it's almost insulting to limit them to just two of the traits.

"these wars had been prepared and made inevitable by the actions and ambitions of Germany I believe."

I wouldn't use the word "inevitable". WWII was SOOO preventable, at least on the scale that it was.

"after Germany had taken over Austria, the Sudetes and was sarting to gobble Poland"

Austria? How about with 99% of the voting Austrian population approving. Sudetes? Germans. Poland? Well, Hitler's a jackass.

"Germans realized they needed a way to negate this equilibrium brought about by the Maginot line. They had 15 years to think about it and they came up with a military answer with Panzers, Stukas and the Blitzkriege"

No, they went around it. On a side note, of the attacking the Germans DID do on the Maginot line, it was only breached once. I compliment to French engineering. I also noticed the poster's name was De Gaulle, who insisted that defenses be increased at the Belgian border. He called that one, even though I think he was too nationalistic as president, although I can sort of see why.

	16-12-2002 03:45									#29
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 "these wars had been prepared and made inevitable by the actions and ambitions of Germany I believe." I wouldn't use the word "inevitable". WWII was SOOO preventable, at least on the scale that it was.

Preventable? Well, with Hitler at the wheel bent on conquering most of Europe I fail to see how it was preventable...

quote: [SIZE=1] "after Germany had taken over Austria, the Sudetes and was sarting to gobble Poland" Austria? How about with 99% of the voting Austrian population approving. Sudetes? Germans. Poland? Well, Hitler's a jackass.

Austria&Sudetes: I guess that's what Chamberlain and the others were thinking at Munich in 1938...
Poland: yeah, there can be no "sane" justification for this one.

quote: [SIZE=1] "Germans realized they needed a way to negate this equilibrium brought about by the Maginot line. They had 15 years to think about it and they came up with a military answer with Panzers, Stukas and the Blitzkriege" No, they went around it. On a side note, of the attacking the Germans DID do on the Maginot line, it was only breached once. I compliment to French engineering. .

My point exactly, they went around it because it denied them their numerical and material advantage. That was a pretty efficient counter-measure, I would say.

quote: [SIZE=1] I also noticed the poster's name was De Gaulle, who insisted that defenses be increased at the Belgian border. He called that one, even though I think he was too nationalistic as president, although I can sort of see why.

Yes, he insisted on prolonguing the line up to Dunkirk. It seems that political considerations, the Belgians were dead against it because it would make their whole country the battlefield, prevailed. A huge mistake.
As for De Gaulle, he had the same feeling about what modern warfare "would" be than the Germans. I think he won the only French victory in 1940 with his tank battalion, using similar tactics based on speed&firepower.

He was a very nationalistic president, true enough. But the good kind, which is extremely hard to find. For example, he is the one who pulled France out of Algeria after understanding that the military victory there was pointless since 90% of the population would never be satisfied to be under French rule again. He relinquished power democratically TWICE (he was called back in to clean the Algerian mess) instead of turning into a dictator. That is pretty rare for "Strongmen", no?

	16-12-2002 06:26									#30
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"Preventable? Well, with Hitler at the wheel bent on conquering most of Europe I fail to see how it was preventable..."

when Hitler came to power Germany wasn't in very good shape, especially militarily. If his military buildup would have been stopped immediately, they could probably have had a case to force Hitler out of power, make a deal or keep troops stationed. Britain and France at the time weren't going to intervene until there was absolutely no doubt. I actually can't imagine what the top officials at the time were thinking.

To the de Gaulle comments:

I never said he was stupid. His choice regarding Algeria wasn't much of a choice. He did kick NATO out, increased the military, and, if my sources are right, started the French nuclear program, with strong disapproval from most World powers. The French people did give him broad powers, and it is very commendable that he turned them down, however.

And yeah, he was a tank commander for the Free French. Would you happen to know if he encountered any Vichy French forces?