14-12-2002 21:48									#1
	Civ-Specific Strategy: Babylonians Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

OK all you Bab players, how do you play your Babs? What is good/bad about this civ! Discuss!

When I play the Babs, I usually have culture in mind. They have two traits that can really help them crank out culture (temple and library). Also Bowmen are great for early aggression. While I am building up bowmen forces I can also research ironworking because I already have bronze. The trick is to get warrior code eraly though. If your lucky you might be able to trade for em or find it. But sometimes you just have to research it yourself. That's just about the only weakness Babs have compared to Germans, who I lpay them the same way when it comes to early aggression.

	14-12-2002 21:52									#2
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Uum, what happened to the Aztecs?


Dominae

	14-12-2002 21:55									#3
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I thought u were making one

	15-12-2002 00:35									#4
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I guess no one likes the babs... If i go for archer rush game, I choose Germans anyway... but Babs are awesome culture civ.

	15-12-2002 01:24									#5
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Well, I like the Babs, as a pure builder civ. I usuallly play with the AU mod and it gives the Bowmen a 0-range bombard, which makes it a powerful defender. When I have to go to war with them, I usually use swordmen or horsemen and keep those bowmen for a long time (in fact, i usually don't upgrade them to longbowmen to keep their defense point.)

They are just great for grabbing land early,with cheap temples and libraries. The early temple pays off a lot culturally and allow to expand borders really quickly, leaving less room to the other player to expand. Being a culture freak is pretty easy for the Babs with all culture buildings half priced. I think there lays their principal advantage.

--Kon--

	15-12-2002 10:56									#6
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I recently fired up a Monarch level PTW game as the Babs. The idea I had in mind was to use them as warmongers: fight like I normally would with a militaristic civ, knowing that the attack would take longer to get going (40-shield barracks PLUS slow workers) but once I gained momentum, the cheap improvements would kick ass.

The problem was that I failed to generate a leader. No matter how hard I tried. I lost 2 straight elite horsemen to 2 regular spearmen (which happens all the time, I'm not *****ing) and that was HALF my elite force. That's the problem with non-militarists... you cannot count on leaders, even with lots of war.

I had built a FP close to Babylon (one city over, in fact) because it would be perfectly placed once I could rush my Palace elsewhere, but w/o a leader it pretty much screwed me. Big mistake. Having essentially destroyed 2 civs, I conceded defeat (I was winning, and probably could have won in the end, but there was no joy in it for me).

The Babs are the ultimate builder civ, what with all half-price buildings. That allows them to make up for the full-price barracks and their slow workers. Left alone long enough, and they can be very powerful, particularly if they get off to a good start and/or have a decent amount of land to work with.

The Bowman is, in and of itself, garbage, IMHO. But it does have the advantage of being the replacement for an unecessary unit: the archer. As a non-militaristic civ, you probably won't archer rush anyway. You can hold this guy until the time is right. They do upgrade to longbowmen, but I think we all know those guys are of limited use, so building lots of bowmen is usually not the optimal strategy (unless you do choose the early bowman rush, in which case pump out as many as you can and hope for the best. I've never done it, so much do I hate early GAs).

-Arrian

	15-12-2002 11:09									#7
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Arrian, I believe your dislike of early GAs severely taints your opinion of both the Bowmen and Jaguar Warriors (from the Aztec thread). True, I haven't played the Babylonians quite enough to form a informed opinion. However, when I compare Bowmen to Archers, I just can't help but think that basically you're getting your attackers and your defenders all in one nice little package (see the Archer rush thread). Therefore the higher cost of Barracks "disappears". So, I would imagine that the Babs are the best Archer-rush civ.

The "ability" to ensure the defeat of your closest neighbor is a good one, arguably worth a GA. Compare with the Greek Hoplite, which is basically costing you a GA to ensure you get out of the Ancient age. The Bowmen does the same, but aggressively rather than defensively.

Anyway, my point is that early GAs are an annoyance, but are hardly a reason not to use a UU to your advantage. Think of a it as a "little UP moment", right at the beginning of the game!




Dominae

	15-12-2002 15:57									#8
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quote: However, when I compare Bowmen to Archers, I just can't help but think that basically you're getting your attackers and your defenders all in one nice little package (see the Archer rush thread). Therefore the higher cost of Barracks "disappears". So, I would imagine that the Babs are the best Archer-rush civ.

A "slow archer rush" is an oxymoron. You can't waste time trying to buy warrior code and build expensive barracks. Even if you pump out regular bowmen, they will be obsolete before your GA finishes.

quote: The "ability" to ensure the defeat of your closest neighbor is a good one, arguably worth a GA.

I disagree with your basic premise; I always try to take out 2 or more neighbors during my GA. The exception would be if they are the only one on my continent, then I feel the despot GA is justified.

Swordmen are definitely the way to go for early wars, but I think most Babylonian players are builders.

	15-12-2002 21:04									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW A "slow archer rush" is an oxymoron.

Thankfully, I never used the term. My observation is that the cost of the Barracks is more than compensated by Bowmen acting as attackers and defenders simultaneously.

quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW You can't waste time trying to buy warrior code and build expensive barracks. Even if you pump out regular bowmen, they will be obsolete before your GA finishes.

Researching Warrior Code is a nuisance, but within the time that you do so, you're focusing on Warrios and Settlers (maybe Temples) anyways. Regarding the obsolescence of Bowmen, I just don't see it before the end of the Ancient age. They're not fast-movers, that's true, but compared to Swordsmen they're still not a bad deal. Given that I've found Archers useful well beyond their "standard" shelf life (cheap cost, 2-point attacker) means that the added bonus of being a Spearmen is pretty good too, no?

Again, I've played about 2 games total with the Babs, so my opinion on this (like most others) is subject to change. But, just thinking about MP again, I can't help but think that a few Bowmen showing up at my door spells disaster.

quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW I disagree with your basic premise; I always try to take out 2 or more neighbors during my GA. The exception would be if they are the only one on my continent, then I feel the despot GA is justified.

Sorry, I should have said "the ability to ensure the
early defeat of your closest neighbor". The question is whether or not defeating opponents early is worth a "wasted" GA. As far as I can see, this is highly debatable. Sure, you may beat them more "convincingly" later with a larger force, but you've lost all those years of production.


Dominae

	16-12-2002 00:52									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Researching Warrior Code is a nuisance, but within the time that you do so, you're focusing on Warriors and Settlers (maybe Temples) anyways.

I agree. Unless I start badly hemmed in on a small island (see the Aztec thread), I've researched several techs before I can think about warfare. You really need 4 cities just for the 16 free unit upkeep in most situations.

quote: Regarding the obsolescence of Bowmen, I just don't see it before the end of the Ancient age. They're not fast-movers, that's true, but compared to Swordsmen they're still not a bad deal.

Again, I agree. They're just as cost-effective as Swordsmen on the attack, and just as cost effective as spearmen on the defense. That makes them more versatile, but not better or worse than either unit.

They're still slow movers, though, which means that you automatically give up the initiative when entering enemy territory. I'll take them as an alternative to Swordsmen when horses are not available.

All of this really overlooks the traditional strength of the Babylonians, which is culture. That's a real advantage at lower difficulties, but you're going to be so out-classed in the Culture department at Emperor and especially Deity that it won't matter.

- Gus

	16-12-2002 01:29									#11
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double post

	16-12-2002 01:31									#12
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Actually, the Babylonians are the only civ that has a chance to keep up in culture on Deity level. Pop rush temples everywhere to get a head start, then use the cheap libraries and cathedrals to stay even until the late middle ages.

	16-12-2002 01:34									#13
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I'm going to try the Babs next, with a focus on early-warfare (Bowmen "rush"). Maybe I'm completely wrong about the Bowmen, in which case I'll lose horribly! Hopefully I'll get a Leader at some point, unlike Arrian's game. Ouch. If I get Bowmen to "work", then Babs become an amazing civ in my eyes, because you've got the traits to build build build in addition to an edge in early conquest.


Dominae

	16-12-2002 19:17									#14
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I'm curious to hear how it works out for you, Dominae, since I admit I've never been able to bring myself to try a Bowman rush.

After my Babylonian debacle, I soothed the pain by playing China. I did bad things to many people. I feel better now.

-Arrian

	16-12-2002 23:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Given that I've found Archers useful well beyond their "standard" shelf life (cheap cost, 2-point attacker) means that the added bonus of being a Spearmen is pretty good too, no?

Definitely not a Spearmen replacement though since you lose the upgrade path. Rely exclusively on Bowmen for offense and defense, and you'll find yourself building an entire new defense force from the ground up when you get to the Middle Ages.

	17-12-2002 00:06									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Definitely not a Spearmen replacement though since you lose the upgrade path. Rely exclusively on Bowmen for offense and defense, and you'll find yourself building an entire new defense force from the ground up when you get to the Middle Ages.

Very good point, I had not thought of that. This is probably something I would have figured out the hard way, if I had begun my game with the Babs by now.


Dominae

	17-12-2002 00:43									#17
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It's not too hard to get a culture lead with the Babs even on Deity, and if you research Literacy yourself you can take a rather large lead at that point. It helps balance out the fact that a conquest will take a bit longer to build up to. GOTM14 was Deity/Babs, and I had 2x the culture of any of the AI's basically from the get go. My first build in every city but the Capitol was a Temple. It makes holding onto captured cities much easier, effectively giving you more units as they don't have to be posted to retake flips.

I dislike using Bowmen. Warriors to upgrade to Swordsmen are more effective, quicker to build and won't waste your GA. Depending on terrain (lots of 1 shield production tiles) I do consider using a Bowman to trigger a GA early on Deity though. Otherwise just wait until Monarchy/Republic is switched to.

City size is one area I play the Babs differently than most anyone else. Because of the early Temple builds pop stays a bit higher on average, and so I keep most cities producing Settlers at pop 5 instead of pop 3. It helps to build the 40 shield improvements (Barracks, Library) quickly. Any civ can be played this way, but because of both cheap Temples and Libraries, I feel obligated to build both of them. With other civs I just pass on culture until the Middle Ages.

After the first Swordsman/Horseman war, Cultural victory is by far the easiest. You can backfill ICS to get an extremely early 100k. Otherwise the basic Knight upgrade from Chariots/Horsemen to continue the conquest.

	17-12-2002 00:51									#18
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I only have a couple of things unique to playing the Babs:

1. As the REX is ending, as Babs I'll build a couple of Bow Men instead of Spear Men.

2. I take full advantage of the cheap temples & libaries playing the Babs.

	17-12-2002 00:56									#19
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Just a culture graph from a babs/deity game (2 other Religious civs, one Scientific). As you can see I wasn't really focusing on culture that much either. By the midway point I was selling off all my improvements.

Through the whole game, I had 2 cities flip to me, 1 size 12 city flipped back a few turns after being conquered (it was down to size 6 by then), but was able to keep all the rest. With an awe inspiring culture, you can normally quell all resistance in a city on the first turn (when there is no chance for a flip), move your armies out, rush a Settler, and the city should keep from flipping. It works like a poor man's (actually you need to be rich to rush all those Settlers) recycling blitz.

Attachment: culture.jpg
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	17-12-2002 05:11									#20
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That looks a lot like my culture graph, but after the early temple jump I flattened out to culture parity. Did you use fringe ICS after the first Persian war?

	17-12-2002 05:37									#21
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Nope, just lots of Libraries and Cathedrals. I was focusing on military at the time too.

	17-12-2002 05:45									#22
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Hmmm, I didn't get Literature until I traded Monothiesm. I guess the delayed libraries cost me.

	17-12-2002 08:00									#23
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My biggest problem while playing the Babs is that I tend to overbuild. I focus too much on those cheap improvements and slack too much my military. The result is some quite intense AAB (Ancient Age Bullying), especially on higher levels. Guess it's practice time again for me!

--Kon--

	17-12-2002 20:52									#24
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Well, I must admit that my first attempt to make Bowmen "work" left a bad taste in mouth.

Bowmen = Bleh

This certainly has something to do with the terrain available to me: when I reached about 5 cities, I was out-expanding the AI, even with liberal pop-rushing of Temples. Things were looking a little too good, and so a rush of my neighbor with Bowmen wouldn't of been any use.

Still, I plan to start another game and try out the little suckers. I'm beginning to see that in SP they're no more than average. In MP, I'm still not sure (what do you do if three Bowmen arrive at your doorstep when you're still expanding?).


Dominae

	17-12-2002 23:12									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae What do you do if three Bowmen arrive at your doorstep when you're still expanding?).

Pop rush a spearman or two and send all extra units to defend the town in danger.

	18-12-2002 00:42									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DaveMcW Pop rush a spearman or two and send all extra units to defend the town in danger.

Yup, then they start destroying your improvements.


Dominae

	18-12-2002 01:00									#27
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I can see bowmen being a pain in MP, but not much more so than an acher/spearman stack. The only difference is that instead of building 3 archers and 2 spearmen, your opponent can build 5 bowmen and have the ability to attack or defend with any of them. Not a huge advantage, IMO.

Maybe I will find out I'm wrong: I'm in a PBEM game and I'm the Babs.

-Arrian

	26-12-2002 13:12									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie Definitely not a Spearmen replacement though since you lose the upgrade path. Rely exclusively on Bowmen for offense and defense, and you'll find yourself building an entire new defense force from the ground up when you get to the Middle Ages.

its the same problem i face when using japanese since i replace pikemen with samurai as defense role. But I have reserve pikemen to upgrade to riflemen later...

	30-12-2002 08:31									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Well, I must admit that my first attempt to make Bowmen "work" left a bad taste in mouth. Bowmen = Bleh (what do you do if three Bowmen arrive at your doorstep when you're still expanding?). Dominae

I think those Babylonian Bowmen can be marvellous. I have been playing Regent games on tiny 80% water maps with 16 civs. The fighting usually starts immediately even before iron working or horses. In my current game I was attacked by three neighbours before I could even start building a settler (because I was at the intersection point on a small "T" shaped island with three other civs). The Bab Bowmans' offensive and defensive capabilities are superlative at such an early stage. Fighting off the three neighbours was no problem with the Bowmen, without the bowmen I am sure I would have lost. BTW I welcomed the Golden Age even though I only had one 3 point city because that enable me to produce Bowmen fast enough to capture a city, destroy a city, and to safely found two cities while facing three opponents which made mine the biggest civ. I could then annex my Russian neighbours and their lovely real estate in the next war shortly afterwards. I have had other such games with the Bowmen proving invaluable.

In a tiny crowded map they are the perhaps the most useful unit in the game (but build barracks for them). OTH In a normal (ie uncrowded)game they may be worse than useless because better units should be available by the time the fighting starts not to mention they may trigger a golden age too soon.

	30-12-2002 10:26									#30
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peterfharris, I think you've nailed it: Bowmen are best when neighbors are very very close. My feelings that Bowmen should be good in MP stem from the fact that, in my mind, MP games are decided in early conflict. Given that many MP games are played on small maps due to time constraints (not to mention boredom avoidance), I do not think my impression is far off. Against the AI it is simply too difficult to rush with Bowmen on Monarch level and above because of all the unit bonuses; against a human player, Bowmen must be a dream (or a nightmare, depending on which side you're on).

Anyone had any success with Bowmen in MP yet?


Dominae