07-08-2000 03:31									#1
	Three Strange Smaxings... including base revolt! Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So, I've been playing a single-player randomly-factioned SMAX game for a while now, with these opponents:

Usurpers
Caretakers
Lal
Yang
Miriam
Domai...

...and I got given the Cybernetic Consciousness. The game has been pretty fun, (although it's realllllly slow on my computer, even with 128 MB Ram) but recently three strange things happened:

1) About five turns back, two squares fully "evaporated", for lack of a better term. I had been making a big defensive line on my border, with a supply crawler, a defenseive unit, and an infantry in each square. On two separate points on the line, not only did all the units suddenly disappear, but so did all the terrain enhancements I'd put up, which were many! I'd had a road, a forest, a bunker, and a sensor array in each square! And the squares weren't overgrown with fungus, either. They were just blank. I mean, not entirely blank--they had their normal terrain--but empty. P***ed me off. I assume this is in the huge bug list, but it never happened to me before, and I'm too lazy to go check it. (Not to mention it'll just anger me again about the non-existent patch... grr...)

2) About two turns back, "holes" appeared in the monsoon jungle. Little patches of normal terrain popped up, as if the jungle was drying up. I didn't have anything to do with this. I had bases in the jungle, but that was it. Could this have something to do with global warming? The sea levels did rise a couple turns later...

3) One of my bases finally revolted! And I don't think I left it in revolt more than two turns. It was an accident, I meant to take care of the drone riots, I just forgot... but the really odd thing is, I was playing a game with Domai, and the base chose to revolt and join MIRIAM! I mean, wow. I'm burned about losing the base, but wow, I'm just tickled enough to see this fabled event that I don't really mind!


That's all, just thought I'd share...

	07-08-2000 03:47									#2
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Just because a base revolts in a game against the Drones doesn't mean they'll join the Drones. There's just a 75% chance of that happening. The probability remains that they could join a different faction.

Now, if that faction already had drone problems, that base could, in theory, go back to you. Of course, the chance would be slim- very slim.

I don't really think the other two could be adequately explained, however...

	07-08-2000 06:38									#3
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HP,

Problems 1 & 2 are definitely attributable to global eco-damage. You will start noticing all kinds of weird terrain changes with the rising sea-levels. Usually, the effect is akin to massive erosion, and the destruction of terraformed improvements.

In a game between Mongoose, Pagan and myself, Pagan lost the Borehole Cluster to erosion, a second Mt Planet has erupted and over the course of 20 years has been worn down to a nobbin of a hill with no mouth, and only two tiles still rocky and giving the volcanic mineral bonus. What remains above water of the Monsoon Jungle has long ago been washed away to regular terrain.

In short, to pardon the pun, we've hosed ourselves. Lucky for me, I'm the Gaians!

	07-08-2000 12:08									#4
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I just remember reading a thread a while back where people were *trying* to get bases to revolt, and it sounded like it never happened, and some people said they'd left bases in revolt practically the whole game! So it seems like a really rare occurrence (almost like Mt. Planet erupting), which I guess I'm honored to have seen. Haven't seen the eruption, yet, maybe that'll happen soon...

	08-08-2000 01:08									#6
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There was another thread about this, too, a while back, where some people were almost in tears over having never seen an eruption. And I'll have you know, mister, I almost always play to transcendence myself! It's a random thing, just doesn't happen for some people, I guess.

	08-08-2000 02:06									#7
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Im currently in a game as Hive and I decided to try a new tactic of repealing the UN charter on atrocities and I unleashed all 15 of my stockpiled Plante Busters on UoP. The Sea levels are rising like I have never seen before and the planet and locusts of Chiron are beating me into the wall. Is there any way to stop the planets relentless attacks on me???

	08-08-2000 04:05									#8
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"You ****ed with Planet, and now Planet will **** you."
Prophet Cha Dawn
"Planet Rising"

"Earthdeirdre, it is time to prune."
Lady Deirdre Skye
"Conversations with Planet"

Get the picture??
[This message has been edited by FrantzX (edited August 07, 2000).]

	08-08-2000 19:28									#9
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Going back to the original question for a moment, I can confirm that I have had units and terraforming "washed away" by rising sea levels. It usually happens a few turns before the real flooding begins, but it's certainly confusing because you don't actually see it happen (or at least you don't with the settings I have). They just disappear ...

The monsoon jungle also starts to disappear in patches.

	08-08-2000 23:24									#10
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With the following exceptions, I have never had units just disappear: the rising sea level "wash" described by Misotu, the design workshop queue clog phenomena, and the terraform up or earthquake which will wipe out nearby sea units which suddenly find themselves on land and not lucky enough to be inside a city.

Long, long ago I think that I have seen the eruption of Mt. Planet in SMAC; it has never happened to me in SMACX.

I am envious of HP seeing the city in revolt going to another faction. I'll probably never see it. My Civ training means that I never like to see a city in unrest for more than one turn. In Civ, running dem would cause you to lose the city for sure on the second turn.

The only thing that I've seen recently that caused me great surprise is when a submissive pactmate built a base just over the border - on MY side. When I called him up he (Zak) was still a submissive pactmate. I made him give the city to me.
[This message has been edited by RedFred (edited August 08, 2000).]

	09-08-2000 00:43									#11
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14th, I did that too, without Repealing Charter but during sunspots, and using only 10 PBs in one turn (..against someone who posted here too ).
A second Mt.Planet raised from the waves on the turn after.
I was swarmed by natives in all forms.
Neeldess to say, I forgot thrice to swithc to Green.
You can't stop the sealevels unless you launch a solar shade.
but you cna strongly reduce the native attacke reducing your ecodamage, superenhanced by the atrocities anyway.
And to reduce EcoDamage, Planet rating plays an important role, apart tring to reduce your mineral production and building ecological facilities.
Tha attack lasted 3-4 turn where I earned 200ec per Turn from pearl hunting...

---

In my experience the searising brings huge climatic changes on coastal areas mainly (but not only). One of the effects can be that you lose your terraforming, but you get big lush lots of rainy tiles where they were just moist or even arid.
This can include jungle tiles which lose their Junlgeness for that (just as when you or an earthquake raise them).

I confirm that most volcanic tiles too turn to normal ones (was that the same game...?).

Cute effects are the sea-monoliths you obtain in SMACv4, that way you can upgrade your ships!

	10-08-2000 09:15									#12
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Well, what happened to me was nothing like having troops "washed away". My troops were well inland, and just disappeared, along with the forests and roads on their squares. Is that what you were saying, Misotu?

I have never left a city in revolt for more than a turn before, either. As I said, my game runs frustratingly slow, so I'd decided to try playing with all sounds turned off. Thus, I didn't get the "Drone Riots" message, which I'm used to hearing. Darn this slow-a** game!

	10-08-2000 03:26									#13
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HP:

Might you have been a victim of a fungi-missile?

Were you in vendetta at the time?

G.

	10-08-2000 04:13									#14
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Yes HP, that's what I was saying. I've only ever had it happen on squares that are fairly low-lying a few years before the sea level rises. But the units have not necessarily been parked right on the coast, which was why it had me confused the first few times it happened.

In every other respect though, it corresponds to exactly what you're describing - the units and all the terraforming vanish, leaving the square in it's "natural" state.

If that's not it, then I've never experienced what you're describing. I've occasionally seen units change into a completely different type of unit - and I once had a mind worm disappear off a transport, mid-ocean, with no damage to the transport or the other unit it contained ...

Sorry - don't know what else to suggest.

	11-08-2000 00:49									#15
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This boggles my mind. In games that I have played, not only have I had mutliple new mount planets erupt, but I have also got the meteor impact a few times too! A new mount planet isn't so bad, it usually happens out in the middle of nowhere. The Meteor impact has never wiped any of my cities, but I always send a pod or two down there and start a new city.

Actually, I bet this comes from the way I play. I don't shoot for quick transcendence. I cover the map with cities, filling every possible spot with cities and terrain improvements. When I trancend, I normally have about 50-70% of the map covered in cities. My games take a LONG time to win.

Its funny. When you own the entire map, almost all of the random events happen to you. And they happen all the time! At least once every two turns.

	11-08-2000 03:11									#16
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Famyn, as I understand it, the new volcano eruptions are not remarkable if you abuse Planet a lot. The unusual feature is to get the original Mt. Planet to erupt.

	11-08-2000 06:33									#17
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Mitosu, that sounds just about exactly like what happened to me. It's generous of you to attribute it to global warming and not errors in code. But I guess it's just an undocumented feature, huh?
[This message has been edited by Helium Pond (edited August 11, 2000).]

	12-08-2000 22:50									#18
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Yup.

Although, to be fair, I don't think I'd count this one as a bug necessarily, although I agree that the way it happens is confusing and poor. Because it has only happened to me under very specific circumstances, I don't have a problem accepting that rising sea levels could produce a tidal wash in the few years prior to the main event. If it's intentional, which I think it may be, it's poorly executed because you:
a) don't see it happen and
b) don't get a message saying "scout unit washed away by tidal wave" or "terraforming destroyed ... " etc.

I can appreciate that actually seeing the event would require a lot of work and wouldn't add much to the game, but implementing a message telling you what happened would not have required much work.

The reason why I'm fairly sure it's intentional is that I noticed in one game that formers seemed to be disappearing along with terraforming improvements. I thought I must be mistaken - I had a lot of formers at the time. Then it happened again the next year, in several locations, and this time I was sure. Hmm.

I immediately moved all my formers onto higher land, and no further units were lost although terraforming continued to disappear. I admit that I didn't really pay much attention to it, or take a look to see exactly how low the square had to be for a unit to be endangered, because rising sea levels are extremely rare in my SP games.
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited August 12, 2000).]

	13-08-2000 09:41									#19
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In a game, when the ocean is about to rise thru global warming, units that are susceptible to being washed away have an Endangered in red right beneath the unit in the action window depicting the square.

I believe i remember (tho I have not since scenario tested it), that I also got this warning befoe a tidal wave swept a base away and killed a former in an adjacent square.

Googlie

	14-08-2000 09:19									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Well, by an amazing coincidence, I've just had a sea level rise in an SP game against a very beefed-up AI. So this time, I paid attention

The wash occurred in the same year as the sea level rise. I didn't lose any units, but I lost a lot of terraforming. The highest square to suffer was at a height of 767 metres *after* the sea level rise and was four squares away from the nearest sea tile. The terraforming in all the squares between this square and the sea was also lost. 767 metres is a lot higher than I would have expected tidal wash to reach.

Unfortunately, I was playing through the game to test out a scenario, so I couldn't go back a turn and see whether the "endangered" indicator showed up.

	14-08-2000 10:23									#21
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I could see 'tidal wash' destroying some units and terraforming, but i've also had the global warming process:

a)make the sunny mesa look like a stick of butter that's been sitting out all summer

and

b)downgrade the rockiness of inland squares

Those are some powerful squalls!

I've seen all these effects (except I don't recall ever losing units) from the solar shade as well.

I'm pretty sure the endangered label is for squares that are about to be submerged (or unsubmerged) during the span of the last planetologist's estimate of sea level change.

	14-08-2000 11:27									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Nigel:

The Endangered label attaches to the unit - move it to higher ground and the label disappears entirely

Googlie

	14-08-2000 11:41									#23
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Goog: I've never seen the Engangered label you're talking about; we're talking about the Endangered label that appears in the window describing the currently selected map square. This label describes the square of land as engangered, not the unit, although any units on the square are obviously endangered as well. I've only seen this label on coastal squares, and the effects I'm describing happened on inland squares.

Mitosu, thanks for the data. I highly doubt that the endangered warning would appear on inland squares, but now I'll pay closer attention. I'm 100% certain, however, that the disappearing units happened a couple turns before sea levels rose.

Nigel: whatever do you mean, "make the sunny mesa look like a stick of butter that's been sitting out all summer"? The graphics actually corrupted somehow? What does such a stick of butter look like, anyway? A big yellow puddle?

Come to think of it, I also experienced downgrading of rockiness, now that you mention it. I was all, "Hey! What happened to my mines?" That lousy global warming.

	14-08-2000 13:47									#24
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HP:
The unique graphics of the special land formations are changed when the program redraws planet with it's adjusted altitudes.
Mount Planet and Sunny Mesa start to loose their cliff-like appearance. Also, if you look at the squares in the Mesa, they aren't as uniform in altitude as the table-top appearance at the beginning would suggest. Thus, when redrawn, it starts to look like butter at room temperature- it doesn't go liquid, but parts of it try real hard. I don't know how else to describe it.

Hey, maybe i should demonstrate this with some butter and use the picture for my entry in the Firaxis contest.

	14-08-2000 20:04									#25
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Hmmm, HP, you are right (just play tested it)

I could have sworn the label was also on the unit, but it's on the landsquare (and of course, when I move the unit to a higher landsquare, the lable disappears ... DUH)

I don't remember seeing it on the reverse (solar shade producing falling sea levels, is there an endangered warning along the coastline sea squares?)

I know I have lost the odd sea former or sea crawler where I've been terraforming upwards and miscounted the turns left (in games before I realized they were on the uplifting terraformers' flags)

Interesting (from a fiction writer's perspective) - what would the terraforming upwards look and feel like to the crew of a seaformer or foil in the square that suddenly uplifts?



Googlie

	22-08-2000 23:40									#27
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Transcend skill level
Huge Planet

Can almost promise you will see a volcano errupt before its over.

	23-08-2000 02:25									#28
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xgman, are you sure you're not confusing the sudden formation of a new mountain with an actual eruption of Mount Planet? This seems to be a common confusion. New mountains pop up on the map from time to time, and almost everybody has seen that. I don't remember whether it gets attributed to volcanic activity or not, but I suspect that this is what you're referring to, because of your wording: "can almost promise you will see a volcano erupt." We're not talking about seeing a volcano erupt, we're talking about seeing Mount Planet erupt, which is apparently exceptionally rare. From what I've heard, when it happens all terraforming on Mount Planet gets destroyed.

And for what it's worth, I regularly play transcend on huge planets.

	27-08-2000 19:02									#29
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Here's what I experienced a year ago,
concerning the 'washing' of land tiles:

1. Short:
Really annoying bug - The erasing of tile improvements and land units on some (now) RIVER! squares, which earlier were supposed to go below sea level because of global warming/melt polar caps, WHEN TERRAFORMING SOMEWHERE ELSE(DISTANT LOCATION) RAISE OR LOWER ANY LAND. Can provide save games(I think) before, during and after, happens every time...

Long:
A) Council votes for melting, 333m over 20 yrs.
B) Tile information gives warning, red text.
C) Actual sinking goes like this; removal of all improvements/units, altitude changes, some tiles actually become sea tiles, BUT some does not. Some rivers changes their course. So far no problem.

D) Me trying to fix the blanked tiles with formers, some tiles now has rivers flowing through.

E) Terraforming up/down some land elsewhere, far away, at the same time.

F) Turn comes when raise/lower land is completed, game moves unit by unit after turn start. When comes to the specific former who completes this turn, land goes up/down, and the beforementioned tiles with RIVERS on get blanked again!, losing all LAND units on them in the process(only flying units survive), and a message appears of change in the wheather patterns near my (always...!) most northern city. Lost 6-8 units this way Not to mention the "reworked" improvements...

That tile is forever unworkable, unless no more terraforming up/down is performed, by me or other.

This was with UK version with patch no 3.0, before Crossfire came.

Havent gotten myself into this situation in Alien Crossfire yet, though I try my best to raise any tile with river on it to at least 1000whatever over sealevel. Builder, that's me....

You might wanna check out if this elaborate theory may fit your scenario, and if so, post the findings ?