15-12-2002 14:53									#1
	SENATE DISCUSSION: Defining "National Emergency" Full PM-box? Change here!

Fellow Senators,

This is related to the "Illegal MPP's" thread started by Arnelos.

While no court action will be taken against anyone, there is a necessary need for us to define certain "gray areas" in our New Constitution.

Arnelos used this quote in support of his statements:

quote: From the Constitution: (i) In the event of a national emergency, the President shall halt play so that the crisis can be resolved.

The law as it stands is fine, HOWEVER, we must define what constitutes a "National Emergency".

So lets get to the bottom of this "gray area" and make it plain to all what a national emergency involves.

May I make a few suggestions to start us off.

1.) In the event of an un-anticipated war, where we are either a) declared war upon or b) our territory is invaded in a hostile manner by at least one foreign power, then this consitutes a national emergency.

I'm sure we can all agree to this to some extent. However, I'd be interested in knowing everyone else's opinion on this as well as any further ideas on what may define a "national emergency".

Thank you Senators.
Meshelic

	15-12-2002 18:49									#2
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When I was CP and then later as DM, I have used what I considered to be several 'layers' of Emergency, ranging from mild to Dire to OH S*IT, WE"RE SCREWED! They were based not only on what the Emergency was, but on how fast and with what, we could respond to that possible Emergency.

With the advent of RR's, the 'level' of Emengencies and our responce to them have gone down a bit. If this had happened 5 turns before we had aquired Steam Engine and had started building our RR's, the seriousness of this occurance would have been much higher.

But that is not the case today. So, how do we define our states of National Emenrgencies? Should we use a Level system, so that something can be gauged and evaluated based on that, or do we just have one level and try to define that for all occurances?

This is the key...

E_T

	15-12-2002 18:54									#3
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The Level system is standard for many nations in RL. Seems to be a good idea.
Besides that, it's cool:
"Mr. President, we are in DEFCOM 3... Stop the chat and call the Senate!"
"What? In your dreams I'll call the Senate! Nuke those bastards!"
"The Senate, Mr. President?"
"Hmm... Yep, nuke the Senate too!"

	15-12-2002 23:04									#4
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hi ,

national emergency ;

if someone nukes one of our great cities
if the enemy comes down at us with 100 tanks while our troops fighting an other war
if five or more of our cities are completely surrounded by an invader
if our head capital is overrun ,
if any city with a wonder is captured or turns over under propaganda , ....

thats about it , ....

have a nice day

	16-12-2002 00:31									#5
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I think National emergency is when a city is threated and could reasonably fall next turn. What we are currently in, and why I wanted to continue the chat, is not a national emergency no more than the zulu invasion was an emergency.
Aggie

	16-12-2002 01:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Aro The Level system is standard for many nations in RL. Seems to be a good idea. Besides that, it's cool: "Mr. President, we are in DEFCOM 3... Stop the chat and call the Senate!" "What? In your dreams I'll call the Senate! Nuke those bastards!" "The Senate, Mr. President?" "Hmm... Yep, nuke the Senate too!"

Hey, you gave me a pretty good idea IMHO. We can set up a system that's similar to the US's DEFCON (DEFensive CONdition, AFAIK) and determine the criteria to halting gameplay using this rating system. E.g. if we're in DEFCON 1 we must halt; if we're in DEFCON 2 and any present member of the government or judiciary objects to continuing gameplay after a discussion then we halt; if we're in DEFCON 3 and the president or vice president want to halt gameplay then we halt, etc'.

	16-12-2002 02:13									#7
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Aggie, I do agree that we needed to halt the game at that point in time, without going to the next turn. For several reasons:

1) so that the FAM could get caught up and see what the Senate desired to do with this new threat and evaluate that against our plans to go after Germany

2) so that the SMC could make any needed troop movements, either on the Roman Front, or elsewhere.

3) for me (the DM) to evaluate our current build/Queue status in the face of this new threat and the plans for Germany. I might want to change PW and/or CP stuff for the next few turns because of not only this, but because of the additional Wonders that can be built (i.e. HE). I might plan on rushing some Mil Units and push back some Factory builds to help boister our Defenses.

So in reality, A halt to Gameplay at the time was needed.

I know that you want to get to the point of going after Otto (i.e. D-Turn), but sometimes you just have to bow to the reality if things and let it go. At least we didn't have a halt to the Gameplay after just one turn, although we now realize that we should have. But that's watter under the bridge and we still have an oppertunity to have at Otto, for just a bit, before the Term is out.

Patiance, my President, it the operative word....

E_T

	16-12-2002 02:14									#8
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hi ,

, Shiber we need a type of office to deal with that , , something like the "joint chiefs of staff" , ...... maybe you as special advisor

have a nice day

	16-12-2002 02:25									#9
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Yah ET I have always been bad on the patience thing., people who play me in strategy games know that sooner or later I'll lose patience and launch an attack instead of manuevering. It's my one major weakness. I guess I would have made a bad jedi. But ok you have valid points, the chat did need to be stopped.
Aggie

Last edited by Aggie on 16-12-2002 at 02:30

	16-12-2002 02:36									#10
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3 levels of emergency:

1) Mild -- Example: Unanticipated war, but one we can handle; chat is halted if a consensus of present members sez to.
2) Dire -- Example: Unanticipated war that we cannot handle; chat is halted.
3) "OH ****ING **** WE ARE DOOMED!!!" -- Example: The world all allies against us and nukes every last one of our cities. President assumes dictatorial powers and probably sends last remaining Warriors to fight their MA advancing through the ruins. (Note: not likely.

As for National Emergencies:

*Unanticipated War
*Nukes (falls under above category, I guess)
*AIs allying up against each other like crazy
*Loss of an important resource like Coal or Iron or Rubber
*Losing a city can be considered a Mild emergency, I guess. 2-dire, I guess. All-OFSWAD .

	16-12-2002 02:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Yah ET I have always been bad on the patience thing., people who play me in strategy games know that sooner or later I'll lose patience and launch an attack instead of manuevering. It's my one major weakness. I guess I would have made a bad jedi. But ok you have valid points, the chat did need to be stopped. Aggie

hi ,

is that a "confesion" , do you show sincere remorse , ......

have a nice day

	16-12-2002 08:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie Yah ET I have always been bad on the patience thing., people who play me in strategy games know that sooner or later I'll lose patience and launch an attack instead of manuevering. It's my one major weakness. I guess I would have made a bad jedi. But ok you have valid points, the chat did need to be stopped. Aggie

Aggie, it's not all you

I personally think it's outgoing-president-itis. I was just as impatient to make sure that the switch to democracy occured while I was still acting president for turnchats before you took over. So I can understand that you'd want to at least start the German war before leaving office yourself. We both have desired to have that feeling of actually accomplishing something before passing on the batton (if possible).

So I would have been equally livid if someone had declared war on us just before the switch to democracy and delayed my ability to make the switch myself

Having had that experience under my belt, now, however... I hope I don't become so impatient to be there for some event at the end of my next term. Everyone hereby has my permission to remind me (as forcefully as is necessary...) that my job is to end the chat if emergencies come up at the end of my own term

	16-12-2002 08:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell 3 levels of emergency: 1) Mild -- Example: Unanticipated war, but one we can handle; chat is halted if a consensus of present members sez to. 2) Dire -- Example: Unanticipated war that we cannot handle; chat is halted. 3) "OH ****ING **** WE ARE DOOMED!!!" -- Example: The world all allies against us and nukes every last one of our cities. President assumes dictatorial powers and probably sends last remaining Warriors to fight their MA advancing through the ruins. (Note: not likely. As for National Emergencies: *Unanticipated War *Nukes (falls under above category, I guess) *AIs allying up against each other like crazy *Loss of an important resource like Coal or Iron or Rubber *Losing a city can be considered a Mild emergency, I guess. 2-dire, I guess. All-OFSWAD .

Keep in mind that Presidents and Vice Presidents (when they run chats) have ALWAYS reserved the right to end chats prematurely at their own determination (either geopolitical or personal). I recall that both OPD and Apocalypse did this while in office together (and more than once). MrWIA also did this once I think while he was in office. I didn't do it myself, though I certainly could have (and, looking back on it, some of those chats were too long and I could have settled for 4 turns rather than the extruciatingly lenghty 5).

	17-12-2002 04:58									#14
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hi ,

allas , its just a thought but maybe we should define the term "national emergency" for ones and for all and write it down in the COL

have a nice day & happy holidays

	17-12-2002 05:15									#15
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , allas , its just a thought but maybe we should define the term "national emergency" for ones and for all and write it down in the COL have a nice day & happy holidays

Well that's exactly what we're trying to do here.

	17-12-2002 05:39									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Well that's exactly what we're trying to do here.

hi ,

, really , .......

no , seriously , where are the judges , what are there point of views , ....

, , maybe we should make a poll and see what the senate things about it

but first we need more feedback as to what the senate defines as a national emergency

the absolute minimum of gold at all times should be one thousand , so that we get the intrest , below one thousand is a "national emergency" , is this a type of emergency , well it sounds like one

have a nice day

	17-12-2002 06:33									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Keep in mind that Presidents and Vice Presidents (when they run chats) have ALWAYS reserved the right to end chats prematurely at their own determination (either geopolitical or personal). I recall that both OPD and Apocalypse did this while in office together (and more than once). MrWIA also did this once I think while he was in office. I didn't do it myself, though I certainly could have (and, looking back on it, some of those chats were too long and I could have settled for 4 turns rather than the extruciatingly lenghty 5).

Agreed! This is a crucial measure, and I will not support anything that doesn't allow a president to cut the chat at his own discretion; after all, the president is the man on the scene. He should ALWAYS be allowed to decide in favor of stopping the game -- we should only address the issue of when he cannot decide AGAINST game stoppage.

-- adaMada

EDIT: Clarified

	18-12-2002 02:03									#18
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My definition of national emergency is as follows:

A National Emergency is an event (such as a declaration of war by another country or an invasion by another country) that could result in serious negative consequences for Apolytonia (such as the loss of a city) if actions counteracting said event are not taken.