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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:24
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Morgan is right next to us, and this may be rather a stupid reason to go to war with him, but it would be convenient. In a full scale war with the Hive we would have to divert troops to their continent, send heavy support and defenses for the captured Hive bases. Ultimately the Hive have the advantage since they’re fighting on the home front, whereas we have to deal with the hassle of transporting heavy numbers of troops across an ocean and supporting those troops. Logistically, a full scale war with the Hive is unreasonable.
Now let us take a look at the Morganites. First of all, they occupy the same landmass as we do. So we’d be fighting a war at home. There wouldn’t be any need for as much military spending and reversion of industry to military equipment. The Morganies are not nearly as militarized as the Hive, essentially they’d be an easier kill; we would not need to defend the captured bases with as many units given that the Morganite military infrastructure is now well developed. Furthermore, any taken Hiverian territory would essentially be harder to incorporate into the Peacekeeper government, given that 1) the citizens of those regions have been living for their entire lives under an oppressive totalitarian regime, and 2) it would be away form the Peacekeeper mainland. Whereas the Morganite territory taken would in essence be right at home, and would easily be incorporated into our existing administrative infrastructure.
And perhaps the key driving reason for behind the push for a war against the Morganies would be the very existence of a military. First and foremost, a military exists not for defense but rather to fight wars. Where there are no wars to fight the place of a military within a society becomes threatened. Currently we are not investing much towards our military, even with the fact that we are at war with the Hive, there haven’t been and aren’t doing to be in the near future heavy military clashes between our forces and the Hiverian forces. Now, consider this: with a war of expansion against the Morganites we would be pressed to invest more into our military, since there would be a clear and present danger on the home front; because let us face it, the Hiverian war is hardly what’s on the front of peoples minds, most citizens just go about their lives with little regard for it. But if all of a sudden we were faced with an enemy who’s right at our doorstep, rather than on some far of continent, there would be a demand by the public for increased military spending. Essentially, a military needs to justify its existence, and to do so it must fight wars.
That may be a cynical outlook on the whole issue of the reasons behind a push for a war of expansion against the Morganites, nevertheless I believe it to be accurate. Form a political perspective this war is also sound. First of all, as Governor of the Twin Sea region there is vested interest which the region has in a push for such a war. Namely that it has the best claims for the newly captured Morganite territory given the close proximity; the developed Morganite cities would be a welcomed addition to that region. Furthermore we need to expand, in fact it has been a government policy to expand our faction, but with little room in the south to expand further, sooner or later we would have to stop, but if we take control of Morganite territory we would no longer have this problem for the time being. There is of course the option of establishing colonies overseas, but a colonial empire is much harder to manage than one at home. So if you will, this war would be one of convenience. We may try and rationalize it, as the CCCP might, in terms of overthrowing the oppressive capitalist regime, but it would in the end serve the purpose, like all wars do, of territorial expansion.
The argument would now come down to, in my mind, of which is more advantageous to us. A pact with the Morganites? Or absorbing them into our own faction?
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
A military exists not for defense but rather to fight wars. |
A military exists both for defense and assult, and IMO we should be considering the former much more important ATM. I don't think convenience is a good enough reason to wage a war against everything we stand for.
quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
And perhaps the key driving reason for behind the push for a war against the Morganies would be the very existence of a military... First and foremost, Where there are no wars to fight the place of a military within a society becomes threatened. Currently we are not investing much towards our military, even with the fact that we are at war with the Hive, there haven’t been and aren’t doing to be in the near future heavy military clashes between our forces and the Hiverian forces... But if all of a sudden we were faced with an enemy who’s right at our doorstep, rather than on some far of continent, there would be a demand by the public for increased military spending. Essentially, a military needs to justify its existence, and to do so it must fight wars. |
Exactly, a military does need to justify expenditure and its existence, which is precisly why we have little military at the moment. There is not the justification for a military, and I see to reason to give it a reason without a need for war. The reason we need a military is war, therefore if the only reason for war is the military, we can do just as well (better IMHO) without either.
Why do we want to invent a demand for a military? If we need one fair enough, but why try to push for a reason for something we would not need without?
The Hive has the Command Nexus. I would be OK with taking that to aid our military when we need it (and decrease their capabilities). However they are already at war with us, and factionally diametrically opposed to our policies. But starting a war, that's not what Peacekeepers, or indeed what our citizens want at all the latest polls.
quote:
Originally posted by Voltaire
The argument would now come down to, in my mind, of which is more advantageous to us. A pact with the Morganites? Or absorbing them into our own faction? |
Trading and letting them live IMHO. If there pods get annoying, then let us release MWs or Iods near them, and they will take care of them. We do not need a war, where, even if we gain as a faction, humanity looses.
And how can we be Peacekeepers if we start wars needlessly. It is a violation of their human rights, and it is against our ideals. They have chosen a leader, who are we to impose ours upon them? If this were in a war crimes tribunal, we would have no justification for this war. They have given us no provocation. We simply would not have a leg to stand on. If we are tor rid this world of any faction, let us remove the blight on humanity that is 'Chairman' Yang, and if that is not possibly yet, let us wait until it is, before wasting resources on this fruitless venture.
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:24
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It will come later I think. We have been at Planned and a Pact brother for 20 odd years at least, and so I see no reason for him to change from Pact to Vendetta quickly. I think we will have 50 more years of peace first, at least. And no, you still have to convince the populace (not to mention the DFA, if he is still against, he can chose not to post the poll, and thus we have no war). I will start an unofficial poll to test the water, but I think you have a way to go to convince most people to go against what we believe in the name of 'convenience'.
Yes the UN charter is 200 years old, but it is constantly amended, and is what we rule by. We are not factionally against war, but we are against displacing an elected ruler (like Morgan) and, since it is against democracy, against imposing our ruler on another, as that is a militaristic dictatorship. Let us build some defence in border bases, but prepared but friendly. And at least let us switch to Knowledge!! 
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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Exactly, a military does need to justify expenditure and its existence, which is precisly why we have little military at the moment. There is not the justification for a military, and I see to reason to give it a reason without a need for war. The reason we need a military is war, therefore if the only reason for war is the military, we can do just as well (better IMHO) without either. |
In an ideal world maybe, but we hardly occupy an ideal world. Not only are we faced with native life which is hostile to us, but with other factions that are equally if not more hostile. And besides our original goal in coming to this world was unity, and once again we have division. I agree that war is undesirable, but it is also unavoidable. Whether we attack Morgan now, or wait until he attacks us doesn’t matter; the only difference it will make is that if we attack now casualties on both sides will be considerably smaller since Morgan cannot defend effectively against our forces. And we do need to give our military forces justification for their existence, or more properly we need to justify you military spending. Why let all those resources go to waster when we can put it to good use of both bettering the lives of our people with the expanded territory and resources we would gain, and the lives of the Morganites which we would annex.
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Why do we want to invent a demand for a military? If we need one fair enough, but why try to push for a reason for something we would not need without? |
Because we do need one. We are at war with the Hive, and I don’t expect it to be as uneventful as it has been so far. Eventually we will be fighting a full conventional war against the Hive, so why not have full prepared forces which to take them on. Furthermore, Morgan is intruding on our territory, we are left with little room for expansion. Personally if you can find a better way, such as convincing his cities to join us, or demanding that he surrender some of his territory, fine do that. But let’s not be fools here, it will never work. War is the most reasonable option we have at our disposal. In effect this would be more of an operation to seize Morganite territory in the east, rather than a war given that their defenses are unable to withstand our assault.
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
The Hive has the Command Nexus. I would be OK with taking that to aid our military when we need it (and decrease their capabilities). However they are already at war with us, and factionally diametrically opposed to our policies. But starting a war, that's not what Peacekeepers, or indeed what our citizens want at all the latest polls. |
Well we haven’t had a poll yet in regards to this operation, so we do not know what the citizens want. If they choose to attack, then so be it. If not, this issue will be dropped for the time being. That’s the beauty of democracy. We can spout ideological rhetoric as much as we want, but it will be the citizens who decide what we do.
And isn’t our ultimate goal the reunification of humanity into one faction, just as this mission initially intended? Why then should we completely disqualify war as a tool by which we can achieve this goal?
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Trading and letting them live IMHO. If there pods get annoying, then let us release MWs or Iods near them, and they will take care of them. We do not need a war, where, even if we gain as a faction, humanity looses.
And how can we be Peacekeepers if we start wars needlessly. It is a violation of their human rights, and it is against our ideals. They have chosen a leader, who are we to impose ours upon them? If this were in a war crimes tribunal, we would have no justification for this war. They have given us no provocation. We simply would not have a leg to stand on. If we are tor rid this world of any faction, let us remove the blight on humanity that is 'Chairman' Yang, and if that is not possibly yet, let us wait until it is, before wasting resources on this fruitless venture. |
The Morganites are threatening our expansion in the east, this is provocation enough to at least take some of that territory back. You claim that there is no justification for this war, even if this is true, are we so high and might that we would be willing to destroy the Hive “for the good of the human race” simply because they do not share our ideal of democracy, with no benefit to our citizens, and at heavy looses, whereas we would not go to war with the Morganites when we have much to gain, and little to loose on both sides? And our ideals do not matter much, as a democracy our ideals are dictated by the people, and if they choose war, so be it.
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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Do we really want to be like the USA? I think they rate among the 'mistakes of old Earth' IMHO. Let us set an example of peace. There is no need for war, and even the USA didn't have a 'war of convenience', just ideological opponents (Vietnam, Korea, China, Afganistan, Iraq etc.) we are not opposed to Morgan in principle (save possibly the CCCP). |
And that was the mistake of the US, they fought pointless ideological wars which they had nothing to gain from. Our war of convenience would gain us territory, resources, and population; the war with the Hive we have is an ideological one, the operation proposed here is not nearly as noble in nature, we have no big, bad enemy which we can use as justification for war. War are a messy business, and we should carefully pick our reasons for fighting them. Our war with the Morganites would gain us much, will little losses. Our war with the Hive would cost much, and gain little. I find it ironic that you would use our military forces to get rid of Chairman Yang, costing our people their lives more likely, whereas you violently oppose the operation proposed here which would better the lives of our people, with relatively little cost to both sides.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:24
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quote:
if we wont have a military most citizens you included will scream bloody murder if we lose a base... |
BS BS BS. Morgan's military consists of 8 syunthametal garrisons, and that is IT. Morgan is a pacifist, and the likelihood that he'll build even a single offensive unit before he declares war is remote. So cut the scaremongering.
quote:
if we attack now casualties on both sides will be considerably smaller since Morgan cannot defend effectively against our forces. |
In case you've forgotten, WE HAVE NO ARMY. We have a police, intelligence, and exploration force, plus a few garrisons; we don't have the capability to take out Morgan without huge loss of life.
quote:
Because we do need one. We are at war with the Hive, and I don’t expect it to be as uneventful as it has been so far. |
So we build a military for that reason, you don't invent another one. You scare me with such talk; it's frighteningly similar to what the Nazis might have thought when justifying the Reichstag fire.
quote:
And that was the mistake of the US, they fought pointless ideological wars which they had nothing to gain from. |
Oh, they had a great deal to gain from their wars, and they made no mistakes. Their wars just had nothing to do with freedom or democracy, and nor did their ideology.
quote:
. I find it ironic that you would use our military forces to get rid of Chairman Yang, costing our people their lives more likely, |
Chairman Yang is a raving lunatic who must be eliminated sooner or later, as he is a threat to us all. Morgan's only beef with us is over an eocnomic system that we shouldn't be using anyway.
quote:
you can debate about it all you want but the UNP is just another faction that wants POWER |
We want power; we don't want it at the cost of needlessly spending our citizens' lives, in an unprovoked war of aggression against an ALLY. Besides, even if our factional power increases, a war on Morgan would not serve our overall interests; it would cripple our only ally, and squander our valuable resources.
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Drogue again about the polling thing....if i make a poll about it and it says we have to go to war the DFA has to obey by it!....! |
If you post a poll, and it isn't biased, then there's no difference from what would have happened if I'd posted it - and if it is biased, then it's invalid and a new one is required.
quote:
and there way to POWER is through use of a UN charter that is like 200 years old...and obsolete. |
On the contrary, the UN Charter has never been more important - the fact that everything we stand for is threatened is all the more reason to defend it; if we don't, then we will become our enemies, and they will have won, regardless of whether they survive or not.
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lets not kid ourself and be prepared for a war with morgan because it will come if we want it or not |
Not unless the anti-FM lobby has it's way. If we go FM, then we will avoid a war with Morgan until far enough into the future that we will have a military well-equipped enough to defeat him without breaking stride.
quote:
then way not control this war and us it at the moment best soothed to our plans.... |
This is hardly the moment best suited to a war - we are already at war with the Hive, and, as I said to Voltaire, in case you've forgotten, WE HAVE NO ARMY.
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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
In case you've forgotten, WE HAVE NO ARMY. We have a police, intelligence, and exploration force, plus a few garrisons; we don't have the capability to take out Morgan without huge loss of life. |
And just as you’ve stated, Morgan is a pacifist, and were we to actually build an army we could take him out. We simply build better units and organize an effective assault force, as the plan proposes.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
So we build a military for that reason, you don't invent another one. You scare me with such talk; it's frighteningly similar to what the Nazis might have thought when justifying the Reichstag fire. |
I’m not proposing inventing a reason for a military buildup; the issue here is whether we should attack Morgan on not. I was simply stating that we will need an effective military sooner or later, better sooner than latter.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Chairman Yang is a raving lunatic who must be eliminated sooner or later, as he is a threat to us all. Morgan's only beef with us is over an eocnomic system that we shouldn't be using anyway. |
So you agree that Yang needs to be taken out, when what is your issue with my statement that we will need a military against Yang eventually? Furthermore, the only reason you call Yang a lunatic would be because you disagree with him; he is perhaps the antithesis of that the Peacekeepers stand for, nevertheless no one here is justified in claiming that our side is right and his wrong, such absolute truth on matters as subjective as ideology cannot be claimed by any side.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
This is hardly the moment best suited to a war - we are already at war with the Hive, and, as I said to Voltaire, in case you've forgotten, WE HAVE NO ARMY. |
What war with the Hive? Oh we’re officially at war, but that’s about it. I haven’t seen any engagements with Hiverian forces recently.
And that is why we should BUILD AN ARMY.
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GeneralTacticus
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of Melbourne, Australia
Dec 2001
time: 15:24
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quote:
And just as you’ve stated, Morgan is a pacifist, and were we to actually build an army we could take him out. We simply build better units and organize an effective assault force, as the plan proposes. |
That kind of kills your argument that it wouldn't cost very much, now doesn't it? The units DBTs has asked for would cost a pretty penny, and I hardly consider them well-designed, either. Moreover, they may well prove to be insufficient to acheive a quick victory.
quote:
I’m not proposing inventing a reason for a military buildup; the issue here is whether we should attack Morgan on not. I was simply stating that we will need an effective military sooner or later, better sooner than latter. |
Then why were you justifying an attack on Morgan by saying 'we need a military'? I agree that we do need a military, but we DON'T need to attack Morgan.
quote:
So you agree that Yang needs to be taken out, when what is your issue with my statement that we will need a military against Yang eventually? |
I don't have one.
quote:
Furthermore, the only reason you call Yang a lunatic would be because you disagree with him; he is perhaps the antithesis of that the Peacekeepers stand for, nevertheless no one here is justified in claiming that our side is right and his wrong, such absolute truth on matters as subjective as ideology cannot be claimed by any side. |
And why not? We, as Peacekeepers, are here because we believe our ideology to be correct; we would not be here otherwise. It is quite true that every side will claim to be right, but that is to be expected, isn't it? If they didn't think they were right, they wouldn't believe what they did.
quote:
What war with the Hive? Oh we’re officially at war, but that’s about it. I haven’t seen any engagements with Hiverian forces recently.
And that is why we should BUILD AN ARMY. |
Exactly. And that's also why we shouldn't go around starting wars just because out military is bored or one of our governors wants some more land.
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Voltaire
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Calgary, Alberta
Aug 2001
time: 22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
That kind of kills your argument that it wouldn't cost very much, now doesn't it? The units DBTs has asked for would cost a pretty penny, and I hardly consider them well-designed, either. Moreover, they may well prove to be insufficient to acheive a quick victory. |
It would cost less than the army required for an attack against the Hive.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Then why were you justifying an attack on Morgan by saying 'we need a military'? I agree that we do need a military, but we DON'T need to attack Morgan. |
If you will read what I said, the military needs a justification for its existence. And that is why they’re looking for conflict. So why not give it to them, we get ourselves a military as you say we need, we put that military to use against Morgan, and get benefits in return.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
I don't have one. |
Ok, then we agree on something.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
And why not? We, as Peacekeepers, are here because we believe our ideology to be correct; we would not be here otherwise. It is quite true that every side will claim to be right, but that is to be expected, isn't it? If they didn't think they were right, they wouldn't believe what they did. |
Well then our ideology needs to be reworked if it is to rigid.
quote:
Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
Exactly. And that's also why we shouldn't go around starting wars just because out military is bored or one of our governors wants some more land. |
Well then if you want things to remain as they are, are you willing to sit by and watch Yang develop air units and bombard our cities? The war with the Hive is largely a defensive one, and form the looks of it will remain as such. The operation proposed here is one which would gain is something in return for our losses. I agree that right now is too early to attack Morgan; let him develop first and then take his bases.
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16-12-2002 17:27
)... Now this'll get interesting.
should Morgan end up destroyed or as a submissive Pact Borther.
@ USA. Do you really buy that propaganda?
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