16-12-2002 06:40									#1
	Was this "bad form" or just part of the game? Inflate your Upload Space

I was playing an MP game with 2 other humans, 5 AI standard map. I was with one other human and 2 AI on small/medium continent. I had an iffy starting spot with jungle directly north and a few crappy chinese cities just North of there on a penninsula. The human opponent was ottomans and due South of me and had lots of grass/hills. Greeks were to his west though not bordering me. I was aztecs with flood plain desert and plains mostly.

We ran out of expansion room fairly quickly and other human player was fighting the Greeks. I decide to Sword rush him by building tons of jag warriors and upgrading them prior to attacking. To get the money i had to lower science rate and fell behind on tech. I traded tech with human opponent so I could then trade with AI. Then I backstab him by attacking his capital with 18 vet swords. The city had GL and Pyramids. Then he quit on me and says He wont play with me again (we've played about 25 games together, he was a reg playing partner for me).

I think backstabbing is just part of the game. There were no alliance of any kind we had agreed to..I was just doing what I felt I needed to do to win. Was this Bad form? I do this to the AI all the time. Am i not supposed to attack a human player like this...

	16-12-2002 07:09									#2
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Backstabbing is like any other strategy. It has its pros and cons. looks like in this case, u used it well to minimize the cons.

	17-12-2002 07:33									#3
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Part of the Game.

This is part of it, being a ruthless leader will serve your Civ well. Being smart helps too, and I think you have that atribute as well CiverDan.

Looking forward to a rematch, beware...I am knocking the rust off my MadSkillz!

Om

	17-12-2002 16:45									#4
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If you were the only humans in the game then of course you should attack him. This is ridiculous.......it's a computer game.....you don't need a UN resolution to launch an attack.

	17-12-2002 23:25									#5
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That is definitely part of the game, but what it does show is that you can't be trusted. I suspect this will have carry over to other games.
I know that if I play you I will be on my guard.

	17-12-2002 23:35									#6
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If you start a game 'trusting' your sole opponent you are incredibly naive and deserve what you get.

With more players there is some leeway......you have to decide whether the person you have allied with is trustworthy........and yes, people who are betrayed have long memories.

Conventions spring up over time; in civ2 breaking a peace treaty happens a lot, and no-one would turn a hair, but breaking an alliance would sully your reputation. Similar guides will develop over time for civ3 if MP has sufficient longevity.

	18-12-2002 14:03									#7
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Definitly part of the game for me. I would have laughed, congratulated you with your success (and really mean that) but be careful with you in my next games meaning e.g that if I have to make a choice between an alliance with you and somebody else, I will in most cases take the somebody else.

	19-12-2002 07:26									#8
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i would expect you or anyone else to attack at all times, this is a game of conquest (if i see a settler walking around alone, its dead. no regrets).
if you pull this on me i'll be laughing and talking sheet, and you better bring more men

	19-12-2002 16:45									#9
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quote: Originally posted by reefer addict i would expect you or anyone else to attack at all times, this is a game of conquest (if i see a settler walking around alone, its dead. no regrets). if you pull this on me i'll be laughing and talking sheet, and you better bring more men

EXACTLY!

LOL!

	20-12-2002 04:21									#10
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Thanks for the input. He was probably pissed he had basically just built two key early wonders for me and the fact that in most games I have played with him I have Cav armies while he still had pikemen.

	20-12-2002 06:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike If you were the only humans in the game then of course you should attack him. This is ridiculous.......it's a computer game.....you don't need a UN resolution to launch an attack.

who says we need them in RL?

	20-12-2002 08:33									#12
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Personally, I think that move was 'good form'.

	20-12-2002 20:13									#13
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Frankly, you played smart. The object is to win, after all. If the game permits a certain method of playing, it's ok to use it. Did that make your civilization "evil"? Yeah, I guess so. But historically, plenty of civilizations have been just as dastardly to their friends. I say you were smart. Your friend is being a big baby. He should laugh at it (it is only a game, after all), learn from it, and next time take his revenge. Or at least be prepared for such treachery.

So don't feel a bit of remorse.

	20-12-2002 22:53									#14
	Got spare money?

Well, he was an idiot for trading techs with you and not being better aware of your offensive intentions while he was already at war with the A.I.

That said, I don't think there's much honor in taking advantage of a fool. You ought to try playing with more challenging opponents.

	20-12-2002 22:56									#15
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My cat for instance.

	21-12-2002 18:15									#16
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Yeah I agree I need more challenging opponents. 60-70% of the games I have played I have have had multiple cav armies while my oppponents still have pikemen.

	23-12-2002 03:17									#17
	Re: Was this "bad form" or just part of the game? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan I think backstabbing is just part of the game.

I wouldn't even call it "backstabbing" what you describe here. Maybe it's just my English, but I thought backstabbing is when you promise to do X and then you do Y with the intention to harm the other party. Trading tech for tech or for lump sum is not something that promises ethernal peace and friendship. If you get tech for gpt, and then you attack before the 20 turns are over, that's backstabbing. But as you said, even that's part of the game (with all the consequences of receiving similar treatment in subsequent games).

	25-12-2002 03:52									#18
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Why don't you look at it from a purely pshycological view. The guy was being constructive, trying hard to rid the map of AIs. Along comes the only ally for the job to be done and demolishes his "work". I also do not agree with what he did, but I know it would be the alst game I would make a trade with you that wasn't heavely in my favour...

	27-12-2002 19:34									#19
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In most games I've played, convention is to handle AI first, THEN start smacking each other.

But all's fair, you just took a bit of a lobbyreputation hit.

No biggie.

	27-12-2002 21:11									#20
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Ais really just get in the way. Might as well play without them unless you want some kind of a buffer... 1 on 1 human games should really be just that, 1 on 1.

	27-12-2002 21:26									#21
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The funniest thing I've come across in PTW MP is when someone came up to me and said... "allright, gimme all your tech or I'll tear you to pieces, I've got 15 unit just outside your capitol borders"... My reply "Fine... no techs, just do your thing"..

And his reply... "Darn!"

	31-12-2002 03:47									#22
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It is accepted that eventually you will fight your human opponent. Either of you can choose to start the fight at any time without prior notice. You chose when to start and that is acceptable. Sneak attacks (aka backstabbing) are part of the game. It is even acceptable to ROP rape, break peace treaties, cancel trade and break alliances if you also accept the possibility that some humans may refuse to play you because of it.

OTH If, before or during the game, you had agreed to take out the AI first then breaking that personal agreement would be a reflection on your character.

BTW If you did that to me I would have quit and refused to play you again. It is one of the reasons I will never play MP. I would say neither of you did anything "wrong". He was not an idiot for trusting you if you had played many times before without backstabbing him. That does make it easy to understand why he refuses to play you though.

	05-01-2003 05:31									#23
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Why refuse to play with civer? He did something ingenious. I'd applaud for shaming me if I was the guy, since I was being ignorant. I love pointing out my friends their ignorance when it comes to video games. Especially in Fighting games. People get so caught up in informally agreed rules that they forget you can do something unconventional and they get pissed cause they werent prepared for it. I think all brilliant war leaders all knew this.

	07-01-2003 02:22									#24
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Although I quiet agree with Calc, just please note that there are players who want opponents who play a gentlemans game. Yes, backstabbing is part of the game, but not all player like to play backstabbers. That's what it's about...

	07-01-2003 02:48									#25
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Jesus are we still on this. You want a gentleman's game then take up polo or something. The object of civ3MP is to beat your opponent.......and it has been rumoured that attacking him/her may be a good way to go about it.

	07-01-2003 05:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II Why refuse to play with civer? He did something ingenious. I'd applaud for shaming me if I was the guy, since I was being ignorant. I love pointing out my friends their ignorance when it comes to video games. Especially in Fighting games. People get so caught up in informally agreed rules that they forget you can do something unconventional and they get pissed cause they werent prepared for it. I think all brilliant war leaders all knew this.

I would refuse to play because, if I may quote Gregi who summed it up nicely:

"Although I quiet agree with Calc, just please note that there are players who want opponents who play a gentlemans game. Yes, backstabbing is part of the game, but not all player like to play backstabbers. That's what it's about..."

OTH I think civer played did nothing "wrong" because, if I may now quote DrSpike:

"The object of civ3MP is to beat your opponent.......and it has been rumoured that attacking him/her may be a good way to go about it."

I would want a peaceful game competing on score or spaceship without having to worry about a human executed ROP rape. (Umh if someone agreed to a peaceful game and then ROP raped that would not be skillful play and it would be "wrong". It would be nothing more than an abuse of trust).

	13-01-2003 12:16									#27
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quote: I traded tech with human opponent so I could then trade with AI. Then I backstab him by attacking his capital with 18 vet swords. The city had GL and Pyramids. Then he quit on me and says He wont play with me again (we've played about 25 games together, he was a reg playing partner for me).

I agree with Delmar & various others. This is NOT backstabbing. A RoP Rape is not backstabbing either... a "Right of Passage" is just that "Right to Pass", not a Peaceful Alliance. Everyone knew that even in SP. If he had verbally agreed not to attack him & then did claiming he was only backstabbing "in character roleplaying" than that would be different.

Unless both players agreed not to battle each other, than he should have no reputation hit. Fear of this player should develop from his skill, as his tactics were fair. When I play MP, no one ever attacks another human (per their request, not mine) - but this is always clearly announced before the game starts.

The flaws with this unspoken "Gentleman's Agreement" philosophy is that NO agreement was officially made & everyone has their own opinion of what is included in this "Gentleman's Agreement". Good communication between players before a game is started is a better philosophy than hoping another player is following the same unspoken "Gentleman's Agreement" as you.

	14-01-2003 21:09									#28
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If you made an agreement before the game not to attack each other (say you were going for space race), then sneak attacking your opponent might be wrong in that case. Otherwise there's nothing bad about breaking treaties... in the cutthroat world of civ MP a treaty is not worth the bytes of RAM it's stored in (except perhaps an alliance).

	14-01-2003 21:12									#29
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Hehe you don't have to wait to 'kick ass' any more Fell......have you tried civ3 MP yet?

	15-01-2003 07:34									#30
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Damn my location field needs updating