16-12-2002 12:23									#1
	SENATE BILL: Pardon Term 6 Administration for Illegal MMPs Support Apolyton

Poll Options
1. "Yea"
2. "Nea"
3. "Abstain"
Poll Duration: 3 days (72 hours)

This poll will last for 72 hours. It should end at 7:23 AM GMT on Thursday, December 19th, 2002.

As according to the Constitution:

Quorum is 14

"To pass, the proposed law must receive more “yea” votes than “nay” votes. It must also meet the quorum."
"Any “abstain” votes are considered solely for quorum purposes. “Abstain” votes may not be considered “yea” or “nay” votes."

The bill being voted upon:
------------------------------------

SENATE BILL: Pardon Term 6 Administration for entering into MMPs without Senate approval

Purpose:
Waive any right for the Senate to bring about any court action against any member of the Term 6 administration for entering into MMPs with Russia, Greece or Japan.

Be it enacted by the Senate of the Apolytonian Republic here assembled,

1. We the Senate of the Apolytonian Republic waive rights to bring about any court action against any member of the Term 6 administration for entering into MMPs with Russia, Greece or Japan.
The senate may still pass bills officially censuring any or all members of the term 6 administration. It was an unfortuante and unnecessary event. This bill only applies to actions taken from 1230 AD through and including 1250 AD.

2. Retroactivly grant the president the power to enter into MMPs with Japan, Russia and Greece between the game years of 1230 AD and 1250 AD.

[edit] corrected poll ending time per jdjdjd'd comments, Thanks

Last edited by ManicStarSeed on 19-12-2002 at 04:57

	16-12-2002 12:33									#2
	Put an end to popups!

I posted this elsewhere, but it begs repeating..
[quote]
- It was discovered that Rome had MPPs with Japan, Russia, and England . The suggestion was made that Apolytonia should match each of these MPPs in order to make these powers declare war on Rome (when Rome attacked us) rather than on us (when we later attacked Rome).
situation.


Uhh how do I say this...

I just looked over the saves and these countries have ROPs with Rome, not MMPs.

Rome does have a MMP with Japan though.

Looking at the 1230 AD save, prior to war, still only Japan has the only MMP with Rome.

It is the damn colors that make it so confusing. The ROP color is VERY close to MMP colors. Only by swtching them on and off can you really tell. Especially if you ar color blind.

Was it the right move? Who knows. It was an honest mistake. A mistake to be decided at the polls. Let us rise to the occasion and the challange.

Support the outgoing administration. They have done a fantastic job. With the MMPs, we are in good shape. Let us put this to rest and just say Thank you for the jobs well done.

Vote Yea to this bill and show your support.

Thank you.

Mss

	16-12-2002 13:17									#3
	Re: SENATE BILL: Pardon Term 6 Administration for Illegal MMPs Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed Purpose: Waive any right for the Senate to bring about any court action against any member of the Term 6 administration for entering into MMPs with Russia, Greece or Japan.

The intent here is noble, but wouldn't this just allow a senator to create a court case against this senate bill?

Man... people need to read Plato's "The Apology" and "The Crito" about the trial and execution of Socrates (both are extremely short... a few pages). Socrates' dialogue with the laws of Athens would be very instructive here...

	16-12-2002 13:23									#4
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Well I don't believe the NewCon specifically says that we are not allowed to pardon someone, so this bill would be sufficient in my opinion.

However, you can't really pardon someone unless they have been convicted of something, so in essence, this bill is granting immunity to the Administration. Even something like this is vague. I suppose if we really wanted to test this theory, someone could take it to court and we would see.

	16-12-2002 13:24									#5
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I hear you Arnelos,
But if the senate passes this bill, there is nothing in the constitution that renders it unconstitutional as we the senate can decide what we will and wont do via the constitution. We will be bound to the bill as law.

Censure can still be possible. The unofficial poll indicates that many are willing to let it rest as is.

I know this bill is a risk, but it is my hope that we can move beyond this.

And you are right Arnleos, I am sure that I could use the education provided by the reading you noted.

Mss

	16-12-2002 13:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit .... However, you can't really pardon someone unless they have been convicted of something, so in essence, this bill is granting immunity to the Administration...

Good point, I guess this bill is a "get out of jail free card"
Mss

	16-12-2002 15:43									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

If Aggie gets put in jail, then I shall either send the Shadow Service to break him out or I shall lead the rescue party myself!

	16-12-2002 18:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic If Aggie gets put in jail, then I shall either send the Shadow Service to break him out or I shall lead the rescue party myself!

I'll be just behind you...

	16-12-2002 18:07									#9
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This Bill is nonsense. You roleplaying courthouse flunkies just don't get it. Most of us are here to play the game of Civ3 and build our game skills.

I strongly suggest that the perps behind this Bill get a life.

I don't know for whom I feel the most sorrow. Those who take this (constitutional) thing so seriously that they draft silly Senate Bills, or those who took action, appropriate for the circumstances, in the turnchat and now have to put up with the nonsense.

For me, the best thing about the DemoGame is the folks I have met here. People to share the challenges, the pains, ... and most of all the laughs.

My heart is heavy with sorrow tonight
for things I cannot understand
reverberated across the forums
and then fell silent

My throat is choked with anger tonight
for people I have never met
have stolen the trust found here
and replaced it with silence

And the silence builds

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	16-12-2002 18:17									#10
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage For me, the best thing about the DemoGame is the folks I have met here. People to share the challenges, the pains, ... and most of all the laughs. Ssgt roadcage (retired)

Same here.

	16-12-2002 18:51									#11
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Roadcage I agree with you.

I understand the purposes behind the NewCon, to help us in playing this democracy game, and making things fair. I'm personally proud of the culture we've established here. Here and only here, can people from all over the world participate and have their opinions heard without prejudice.

I prefer to learn and hone my skills through the strategy thread, but here it is an interesting case. Here we have established a full-fledged democratic governement, ruled by the people, with a constitution, a code of laws, a public forum, a newspaper, everything. We have everything here online that many countries in RL totally lack! I feel blessed and fortunate to be in a position to be able to participate in a forum like this.

Sometimes it seems as though things go a little overboard. In some cases people have left the game in the past due to some of the issues that have been brought up now and in the past. But we perservere. That is the point.

I sympathize with you Roadcage. I too have very much enjoyed the company of the people here, and believe that I have made new friends. Whenever my own friends in real life treat me like shite, I know I have all of you guys to fall back on, even if most of you don't agree with me all the time.... But to me it's worth it, even when all the Bills, Amendments, Polls, Discussions, and etc are thrown in the mix.

Don't take anything too seriously, and everything will be alright. There have been times when I've been frustrated as hell while posting in the forums, but I have to laugh and smile, because in the end I know that it doesn't really matter, and it's better to take things in stride anyways.

	16-12-2002 21:03									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

I suggest this poll be cancelled : it allows one answer for two completely different questions; in addition, they probably deserve different majority.

	16-12-2002 22:37									#13
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'Perfection in a human - ah what is that? Is it not the capacity to forgive.'

(quoted by my brother, a mongrel mutt, who stole the turkey off the Christmas dinner table last year, and is still alive to talk about it...)

	17-12-2002 01:40									#14
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WOW!!! Where do I begin...

[Begin Rant]

quote: Originally posted by roadcage This Bill is nonsense.

Than abstain, a vote of nay indicates you are more concerned with adherance to the constitution than the gameplay and would rather leave people open to roleplaying courthouse flunkies. I was just trying to protect people.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage You roleplaying courthouse flunkies just don't get it.

You can not be talking about me, becaust I am not a roleplaying courthouse flunkies and I do get it do you? This bill is intended to make a NON-ISSUE of signing the MMPS with out prior apporval.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage Most of us are here to play the game of Civ3 and build our game skills.

Yep, I agree because that includes me too.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage I strongly suggest that the perps behind this Bill get a life.

Use the singular here and please refrain from personal attacks. I have a full time job, am active in the community, have a wife and kids, party, play a varity of games and generally just enjoy myself whatever I do. That sounds like a life, believe me, I have plenty of life.

quote: Originally posted by roadcage I don't know for whom I feel the most sorrow. Those who take this (constitutional) thing so seriously that they draft silly Senate Bills, or those who took action, appropriate for the circumstances, in the turnchat and now have to put up with the nonsense.

You shouldn'f feel any sorrow as none of this matters. Silly yes, but why take something so silly so seriously. I do not take the constitutional think as seriously as you percieve. I drafted the bill only to put the issue to rest. Why flame me? Is it not clear that this is ment to sweep it all under the rug and FORGET ABOUT IT?

quote: Originally posted by roadcage For me, the best thing about the DemoGame is the folks I have met here. People to share the challenges, the pains, ... and most of all the laughs.

I agree. That is all I ever wanted. I hoped that with this stupid bill, ANY negativity would be avoided, say "it is alright folks it is just an oops, the senate forgives and supports you lets get beyound it" but you roadrage.. err cage want to cast judgment on someone you do not know and attacked me with yor pity. I do not want your pity or sorrow.

As far as this is concerned, I do not see why you need to attack me here when there are other threads much more suited to what you are trying to say.

Nuff said
[End Rant]


Davout, you might be right the two clauses tend to contradict a little, but the real intent here is to make the signing of MMPS in question a non issue.


Mss

	17-12-2002 04:20									#15
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Mss - wow - good rant.

	18-12-2002 03:05									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I like the idea and support pardoning them, but I think a vote forcing everyone to forfeit the right to bring a case to the court on the issue is unconstitutional.

	18-12-2002 05:09									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I voted abstain because I don't care anything about this whole issue - get over it.

	18-12-2002 05:47									#18
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Wow... this bill vote is as close as some of our better elections

	18-12-2002 09:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Wow... this bill vote is as close as some of our better elections

So what do you think, Arnelos, between this bill and your pick for VP you and I are riding the edge of this game huh?

Mss

	18-12-2002 09:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed So what do you think, Arnelos, between this bill and your pick for VP you and I are riding the edge of this game huh? Mss

Interestingly, panag is faring better than this bill.

	18-12-2002 09:32									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Interestingly, panag is faring better than this bill.

That is why you will be president

mss

	18-12-2002 09:37									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ManicStarSeed That is why you will be president mss

I don't think it has anything to do with me (or at least it shouldn't), but that's beside the point.

	18-12-2002 21:22									#23
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MSS, Can you clarify when this poll ends.

It looks like this was started at 2:23 AM EST on 12/16, that would be 7:23 AM GMT on 12/16.

Three days later would be 2:23 AM EST or 7:23 AM GMT on 12/19.

Isn't 12/19 correct? The initial post states 12/18.

	19-12-2002 04:50									#24
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Darn..

That is what happens when you work too late.

I wanted it to be three days from the time I posted which per jdjdjd's comment is 2:23 AM EST or 7:23 AM GMT on 12/19. I assume that is what the server would hold ust to correct?

Edited to fix my potty mouth

Mss

Last edited by ManicStarSeed on 19-12-2002 at 04:55

	20-12-2002 00:36									#25
	Remove this text

hmmm...it's past the close time and it still ahsnt closed

	20-12-2002 04:18									#26
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bump...why isn't it closing

	20-12-2002 04:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by civman2000 bump...why isn't it closing

hi ,

send a couple PM's , ...

have a nice day

	20-12-2002 08:36									#28
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by civman2000 bump...why isn't it closing

It's likely that the person who posted the poll (MSS) forgot to change the number of days from the default of 0 (which in 'poly terms means the poll never closes).

	20-12-2002 17:48									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos It's likely that the person who posted the poll (MSS) forgot to change the number of days from the default of 0 (which in 'poly terms means the poll never closes).

hi ,

well we could always ask that a G-D shows his divine powers and does so , .....

have a nice day

	21-12-2002 01:07									#30
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hmm... I wonder if I have the power to close it... lemme try