17-12-2002 00:59									#1
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We are on the very edge of war with NDE at this moment.

quote: hello trip, we almost accepted your border proposal but then we see again that your warrior insists to follow our settler (if he would be interested to discover the area then he would be on a hill now but he went down to the luxury instead - remember we had a discussion about this yesterday). We are sure that he wants to enter the mountains on line 5 in the next turn! We gave you a map of our country, we have withdrawn our settler and now we also have withdrawn our scout from your territory! i am sorry - but the situation is like this now: a) if you go with your warrior on line 5 or if you stay on line 6 then we will understand it as a declaration of war made by you! b) if you go back to line 7 we will accept the boder proposal you made and we can continue our trade discussions! please make your choice, and i really hope we both can avoid a war! all the best, Borc

We can make a decision here.

We can back down, and accept the border, as suggested by us. This appears to be acceptable to them.
However, this would mean taking a submissive stance to NDE. We will no longer have the ability to scout the neutral area... even lands we negotiated for. From what we now know of NDE, this all seems too fishy...

If you ask me, then we must be bold and not back down. If war is our fate, then let us not back down and fight with honor!

	17-12-2002 01:26									#2
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My proposed response:

quote: Of course war is beneficial to neither of us, and we hope to avoid it at all costs. However, we feel that we are exploring neutral land, as you have already done (and continue to do with your scout near our capital, even as it's within our borders still), and we find your demands to be unacceptable. Even worse, our warrior is still in areas that were deemed Lux territory by our agreement proposal. We will refrain from going past the mountain chain into NDE home territory (which you have not done for us), however, that and that alone will be the only limitations of our explorations.

	17-12-2002 02:21									#3
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GREAT ANSWER!

	17-12-2002 02:32									#4
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Back down immediately, except when their scout is moving in even closer.

Try to get that proposal accepted, and then explore and expand to the west.

	17-12-2002 02:44									#5
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Trip, why does ur pic on ur site show the warior on the silk forest? I thought the Warrior was stationed on the Mountain for scouting + "border security" purpose...

	17-12-2002 03:19									#6
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a) That's spices
b) The warrior needs to go through the forest to reach the mountain.

My 2 cents:
Talk to Borc. Explain that we have not scouted the lands on lines 5-8 in the east. See if he understands. If yes, get the border deal done and move east onto the hill. We need to see that territory once we discover IronWorking. Also try to get some sort of tech deal after all. If no, well, then I think war will be unavoidable.

Always state that we keep the warrior on our side of the proposed borders. And do so.

No need to follow that settler. It will enter their capital, and be out of reach. This will only make them angry (and they have a right to be).

	17-12-2002 04:08									#7
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First off, why should they be able place their scout in out territory while at the same time tell us we cannot explore neutral territory. This is simply not acceptable. I agree with trips response there. But they must withdraw the scout as part of any deal and not attempt to go NE of our capital. I think that if more than reasonable considering their demands.

	17-12-2002 04:23									#8
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They have units in our sovereign territory, while we're not supposed to have any units in neutral territory?

That's unacceptable, and they should know it.

	17-12-2002 06:56									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They have units in our sovereign territory, while we're not supposed to have any units in neutral territory? That's unacceptable, and they should know it.

Agreed. If they refuse to leave our borders or to let us explore neutral territory, tell them where they can shove those bows. Wipe the disrespectful [expletive deleted]s out. ELIMINATE THEM.

	17-12-2002 07:37									#10
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Lets just keep doing what we're doing and try to ignore them as best we can, since they're not going to cooperate with us.

	17-12-2002 15:59									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Trip They have units in our sovereign territory, while we're not supposed to have any units in neutral territory? That's unacceptable, and they should know it.

I agree 100%. They must have something to hide there if they don't even want us to go near them. Perhaps their capital is undefended and are in a really helpless situation....

	17-12-2002 21:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Vlad Antlerkov Agreed. If they refuse to leave our borders or to let us explore neutral territory, tell them where they can shove those bows. Wipe the disrespectful [expletive deleted]s out. ELIMINATE THEM.

Three words: Increase your medication...

	17-12-2002 23:52									#13
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So...is everyone willing to listen to the Ministry of War for a change? I smelled this coming a few hundred years ago...However, I too was temporarily lulled into a sense of euphoria by our easy diplomatic victory, however, we need to act in our own best interest.

1) The scout must leave our terretory immediately.
2) We must preserve our right to explore neutral terretory
3) What we need is a pact to leave each other alone, that means avoiding each other's terretory.
4) Respect must be mutual. Their new stance tells me that they will soon be building archers to enforce their policy in the region, and they will never trade warrior code to us.
5) We need a counter policy as defined above, and with Trip's comments.
6) We must prepare for war.

I suggest building military units rather than improvements between settlers.

	18-12-2002 00:32									#14
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Agreed, but also, the call for REX has grown. This will imply building at least one granary.

Suggestion: let the capital build granary and settlers; let other cities build up our military.

	18-12-2002 00:37									#15
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After the spearman, I say go for a settler, then granary, then settler...however, how do we build our military ASAP!!!

Maybe we should change construction orders to a settler ASAP, then go for spearman, settler, granary, settler???

	18-12-2002 07:09									#16
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I would ignore their request to remove the warrior, and tell them no real border treaty has been signed.
Chase their settler and stop it settling on a hill etc if possible.
We could say they have to disband their scout and we will allow the border to stay, as its well within the border.
In fact i think we should counter threaten them, telling them if they do not remove the scout we will declare war on them, and not make any negotiations.
We could later come to some 'agreement' like a peace of friendship agreement, to try and stop the war.. when they realise they could be in trouble they may suddenly try and be nice to us, and worship at our feet hehe.

Tell them we can live without an alliance or deals with them.

It would be useful if we could find other civs soon, perhaps uncover the fog, they could be useful allies against ND if we get into trouble.

	18-12-2002 12:56									#17
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We could also be REAL dirty, walk to their capital, capture their worker and destroy their improvements.... *evil grin*

	19-12-2002 02:45									#18
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GoW may be of use in any wars with ND, I strongly suspect GoW have made some deals with ND, see my GoW Ambassador Forum.

We may be able to contact GoW very soon, if all goes according to plan.

APJ

	19-12-2002 04:45									#19
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Seriously doubt? GoW is one of the highest 3rd civ candidate on my speculation thread. NDE IS scheming with a 3rd civ that we are blind about. It HAS to be either Vox or GoW IMO. If it turns out to be GoW, We'll get burned big time.

I suggest looking south for GoW/Vox/3rd civ. We are pretty high up in the map so its likely they are located lower than us. Also since NDE seems to be located to the west and interested in expanding south, GoW maybe more westward than NDE.

Last edited by Zero on 19-12-2002 at 04:50

	19-12-2002 09:59									#20
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Yes... we need to find an ally just in case relations with NDE go really sour soon. This may be why GoW wants to trade maps with us...

Most important things to keep in mind right now:

We need DEFENSE. Sure, Archers/swordsmen are great, but we're not really out to go and capture anything at the moment... we have bigger fish to fry. Holding onto what we acquire peacefully is a more viable plan than going out and conquering anyone. The nature of the terrain in the area makes defense even more attractive.

We need to EXPAND. Taking the disputed land would be a big boost to us, especially if we can do so and avoid war. If we can cut them off to THEIR north and east, then we'll have a ton of land for the taking.

	19-12-2002 18:03									#21
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Trip, the recipricol of your strategy/expansion plan is NDE's strategy, and is why they will not agree to any border resolutions.

Speermen first, but they will need archers/swordmen to back them up and make the defense much more secure...If I could get my dang file uploaded....I could show you precisely what I mean.

	24-12-2002 22:01									#22
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"Showdown with Borc!" -Lux Invictus Press-