17-12-2002 02:35									#1
	Unofficial: War with Morgan Tired of ads?

Is there support for a war with Morgan, as DBTS proposed?

Personally I think it's completely unjustified, hypocritical, against our ethos and our ideals and just plain evil (besides, i like that smilie )

Vote with your concience, vote No!

	17-12-2002 03:46									#2
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At first I've really thought DBTS is simply bored... But this has gone too far. How can we explain such a dirty war?
Because of convenience?? Come on, we are peacekeepers not when it's convenient, our agenda is to unite Chiron behind us, not under our feet.
Because Morgan is liberal and runs 'wrong-headed' economy? Shame you, socialists, it's the worst oportunistic hypocrisy I've heard recently.
Do we really need the "Lebensraum" for our faction so much, even at the cost of thousands of lives? I'd rather live in the Hive then, as Yang is much more sincere about his agenda than our leaders...

Make food not bombs!

	17-12-2002 04:04									#3
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I think so far no CCCP member has supported it. Its not becasue of his economy, purely because of convienience!!!

	17-12-2002 04:04									#4
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quote: Let us kill the idiot and slaughter all his children

no! kill him, mate with his women, enslave his children, and burn down his house!

	17-12-2002 04:07									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Kirov Shame you, socialists, it's the worst oportunistic hypocrisy I've heard recently.

Quote from what you've heard?

	17-12-2002 05:08									#6
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I voted NO, but I will serve my leaders as soldier whenever itīs needed. Do not declare war, but be ready! As long as Yang and Miriam ar around, itīs very good to know thereīs smething solid standing between us and slavery far away.

btw: We donīt need the "Lebensraum" that Morgan has, letīs expand to the northern wastelands instead!

Long live our faction!

	17-12-2002 05:11									#7
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Very good point about having room for expansion, Kirov.

I also voted NO. Morgan is a valued ally, and nothing has yet convinced me otherwise.

	17-12-2002 06:17									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Quote from what you've heard?

*looking at his fungal joint in a puzzled way*

Heh, well... Only checking you... OK, OK, I simply need a rest...

	17-12-2002 06:56									#9
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well, we don't need a war yet, but we DO need to beef up our military.

	17-12-2002 07:09									#10
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This is a farce.

You’re simply misrepresenting the issue, and this isn’t even an official poll.

Let’s have a proper debate on the issues here, rather than resort to this sort of blatant farce.

	17-12-2002 07:40									#11
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You're right, it isn't an official poll.

This poll, and other unofficial polls, serve a purpose. They tell policymakers what the general sense of the population is on an issue. However, it's up to the policymaker to decide how to interpret that. If the poll results were as now (1 for, 6 against), one leader might interpret that as a decisive vote of 80%+ of the people opposing war. Then again, one leader might interpret that as the result of a biased poll that appeals to passions rather than reasoning. All unofficial polls can do is offer advice, and the choice of whether to listen to that advice is left with our Directors and Governors, who have the right and responsibility to post official polls.

	17-12-2002 10:43									#12
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NO, NO, NO! There is no need whatsoever for a war on Morgan, especially not when he is our only ally and we are currently at war with the Hive. He has nothing we want (except land, and ther eis no shortage of that), he has done nothing to provoke us, and we need to conserve our resources for use against Yang.

	17-12-2002 11:11									#13
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Fine then, mount a successful military expedition against Hiverian forces, and capture one of their bases, and hold it; if this can be accomplished I will conceded. The reality is that we cannot wage a conventional war against the Hive, even with superior units at our disposal we are still outnumbered. Logistically a war with the Hive for the time being in unworkable; and also our pact with Morgan, so long as we are running an economic system other than free market will not last. He might even eventually declare war on us.

What is at issue here is not morality, ethics, or anything nearly as subjective or romantic as that. We need to look at the reality of the situation. We need land to expand, Morgan is in our way. He is weak, we can take him out with relatively little casualties on both sides. All those crying out that we cannot afford to go to war due to the fact that we are at war with the Hive, and we need allies. Consider the fact that as it stands we are not engaged in full scale war with Hiverian forces, far form it in fact. Mounting an invasion of Hivernain territory would be at the time unworkable. Furthermore Morgan as an ally cannot contribute anything to our war with the Hive in the first place as it stands.

And all those out there voting against the war on moral grounds; you are perfectly entitled to do so, but as Governor of the Twin Sea region I have to consider the welfare of the region before anything else, including morality. And when it comes down to it, the seizure of Morganite bases and the addition of those bases to the Twin Sea region as well as the expanded available territory for colonization are all beneficial to the region.

It is noble of us to attempt to act with some sense of morality with the power which we wield and not attempt to impose out political views on others (with the exception of the Hive whom few have a problem of eliminating), but the reality is that however noble it may be, it is foolish of us not to act when we can. We don’t need to have any moral high-ground for actions, and we would not be fighting this war over anything as trivial as ideology, religion, or even politics; but rather something tangible. Land and resources.

Realistically speaking, this war most likely will never fly with the public, and any official poll in regards to the proposed operation will fail; but simply because something isn’t popular does not mean it is not correct. I sand by my support for the operation, I cannot realistically be representing the Twin Sea region as governor and deny the benefits the region would derive form the war.

	17-12-2002 11:15									#14
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Voltaire, explain how, exactly, attacking Morgan would help us to wage war on the Hive? Your oft-repeated 'we need an excuse to buidl troops' doesn't cut it, because the Hive war IS a vlid excuse to build an army, and if the public doesn't agree, that doesn't give you the right to destroy countless lives just to fabricate a new reason to have your own way.

	17-12-2002 11:41									#15
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Voltaire, explain how, exactly, attacking Morgan would help us to wage war on the Hive? Your oft-repeated 'we need an excuse to buidl troops' doesn't cut it, because the Hive war IS a vlid excuse to build an army, and if the public doesn't agree, that doesn't give you the right to destroy countless lives just to fabricate a new reason to have your own way.

I’ve never claimed that attacking Morgan would help us wage war on the Hive. All I’ve stated is that if we intend to fight the Hive in a full fledged conventional war in the future, we need a military. That alone should warrant a buildup. In fact I don’t see a reason for us to engage the Hive in total war in the near future, given that logistically fighting a war abroad is costly in both lives and money. I’m arguing for a war on Morgan since it would benefit us, namely the region of which I’m Governor of, if we were to take a few of his bases to the east of our present expanse to enable ourselves to expand even further.

As for a war with the Hive; I see no reason to wage a full scale one simply because we disagree with their ideology. Frankly the Morganite war makes more sense since we actually gains something form it, that something, as I’ve repeated countless times, is territory, resources, and bases. Whereas with the war on the Hive we loose much more in terms of troops, that even a total victory might not be worth it in the short run.

	17-12-2002 11:51									#16
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quote: All I’ve stated is that if we intend to fight the Hive in a full fledged conventional war in the future, we need a military.

So why attack Morgan?

quote: In fact I don’t see a reason for us to engage the Hive in total war in the near future, given that logistically fighting a war abroad is costly in both lives and money.

Of course it's difficult, but it's not THAT difficult, assuming we make the right preparations. Moreover, Yang has far more land and resources than Morgan, and we would need to get rid of him anyway.

quote: I’m arguing for a war on Morgan since it would benefit us, namely the region of which I’m Governor of, if we were to take a few of his bases to the east of our present expanse to enable ourselves to expand even further.

Your duty is to the well-being of the Peacekeeper faction as a whole, not to extending your own region.

quote: As for a war with the Hive; I see no reason to wage a full scale one simply because we disagree with their ideology.

In case you've forgotten, they started it, they've refused to end it, and even if they do, thye will soon start another one. We have no realistic option but to destroy them. Morgan is completely different; we have no reason for conflict with them at all, save for our economic system, which he is quite correct in condemning.

quote: Frankly the Morganite war makes more sense since we actually gains something form it, that something, as I’ve repeated countless times, is territory, resources, and bases.

And what we lose is our integrity, our right to be taken as honest, our chances of secruign further Pacts should we be the ones to cancel it, resources that would be better spent against the Hive, time taken to build a military we don't need yet instead of economic infrastructure, etc. It's not as if Morgan's land is that stellar anyway.

EDIT: We also lose Morgan's commerce, which is hardly insignificant, especially now. Not only that, but the bases which you want us to take aren't exactly well-developed, and might even be destroyed by the very act of capturing them.

quote: Whereas with the war on the Hive we loose much more in terms of troops, that even a total victory might not be worth it in the short run.

Not in the short run, but definitely in the long run. We'd gain control of half a continent, eliminate our prime enemy, and as long as we fight the war properly and grab the CN right off the bat, our losses shouldn't be too severe.

	17-12-2002 12:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus So why attack Morgan?

I said IF we fight a full fledged war wit the Hive.

As for why:

LAND + RESOURCES+ BASES

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Of course it's difficult, but it's not THAT difficult, assuming we make the right preparations. Moreover, Yang has far more land and resources than Morgan, and we would need to get rid of him anyway.

Well then let’s do it.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Your duty is to the well-being of the Peacekeeper faction as a whole, not to extending your own region.

My duty first is to my region, second to the Peacekeeper faction.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus In case you've forgotten, they started it, they've refused to end it, and even if they do, thye will soon start another one. We have no realistic option but to destroy them. Morgan is completely different; we have no reason for conflict with them at all, save for our economic system, which he is quite correct in condemning.

Morgan is in our way, and I’d prefer him to be out.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus And what we lose is our integrity, our right to be taken as honest, our chances of secruign further Pacts should we be the ones to cancel it, resources that would be better spent against the Hive, time taken to build a military we don't need yet instead of economic infrastructure, etc. It's not as if Morgan's land is that stellar anyway. EDIT: We also lose Morgan's commerce, which is hardly insignificant, especially now. Not only that, but the bases which you want us to take aren't exactly well-developed, and might even be destroyed by the very act of capturing them.

Then we wait until they are developed. And that’s why we get the Morganites to declare war on us, not vice versa.

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Not in the short run, but definitely in the long run. We'd gain control of half a continent, eliminate our prime enemy, and as long as we fight the war properly and grab the CN right off the bat, our losses shouldn't be too severe.

IF we fight the war properly; but we’re not a militant faction, while the Hive is. Morgan is more in our league than the Hive.

	17-12-2002 12:28									#18
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quote: LAND + RESOURCES+ BASES

The land, isn't that good, neither are the resource,s and we will probably end up having to rebuild the bases anyway.

quote: Well then let’s do it.

We are agreed then, although we can't do it yet.

quote: My duty first is to my region, second to the Peacekeeper faction.

Your duty is to the faction first an dnothing else second. You were elected by every PK citizen, to govern your region according to the interests of everyone, not just your own.

quote: Morgan is in our way, and I’d prefer him to be out.

How exactly is he in our way? He has little of any real value in the area you want.

quote: Then we wait until they are developed. And that’s why we get the Morganites to declare war on us, not vice versa.

If you're going to wait that long, you might as well drop the whole idea until then, because that will take a LONG, LONG time.

quote: IF we fight the war properly; but we’re not a militant faction, while the Hive is. Morgan is more in our league than the Hive.

Just because we aren't militarists doesn't prevent us from waging an effective war.

	17-12-2002 13:00									#19
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Do we get to use atrocities?

	17-12-2002 13:57									#20
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Seeing as how nerve stapling wouldn't be much use, no others are available and they're all illegal, my guess would be no.

	17-12-2002 14:54									#21
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I do not really see the point in attacking Morgan. On the other it is always good practice to have an army ready just in case he or other faction come on our lands to invade us.

As for expansion .... We have the weather paradigm, which means that we can raise or lower terrain, which means that we can create as much land as we need .... without having to wage war for that.


Besides, I think that we should take care of Yang first

	17-12-2002 15:49									#22
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We 're not prepared for war yet. we need to prepare our defences ( the CDF) and build up attack units. But we do need to expand. And we haven't even met the other factions yet. A bit more exploration needed.

	17-12-2002 19:38									#23
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well i havent read everything yet...but let me just answer these questions!:

we arent ready for war yet? yes you are correct that is way we need to build troops i dont say lets attack him in the next turnsession...

and if we want to wage war on the Hive we need first:

*some seabases where we cant send reinforcements from
*these bases need to produce well
*a lot more units then we need for a morgan war
*a lot more time

	17-12-2002 19:42									#24
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Definately not.. i dont see a point to do so... and i also think more exploration will be good

	17-12-2002 20:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by DeathByTheSword we arent ready for war yet? yes you are correct that is way we need to build troops

The question is if we need that war, not how to prepare for it. Building troops means not building infrastructure + problem with support. The only fact we don't have troops at the moment doesn't mean we should train them... Convince us, Herr DBTS, why the "Lebensraum" of Morgan and his pathetic bases, planted and improved in a ridiculous way, would be more beneficial than improving our already existing infra + e.g. raising land masses, as Aaron have pointed out. Besides, our values and agenda also have importance, haven't they? It seems like the faction I have joined on "Unity" and the faction I live in at the moment were two different ones...

	17-12-2002 21:14									#26
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hm, seems if people will have to chose between idealism and the way giving most advantages...

Well, as DBTS said :

quote: i dont say lets attack him in the next turnsession...

it is a concern of far future, but there should be a decision whether it is possible for our faction or not. So we have to plan on long range then, whether doing land or sea invasion...
But two important points are the following: (I know theyīve been already said plenty of times)
--> Morgan is a weak ally, and he will be a week enemy, too
--> Annexing weaker faction makes us much more capable of dealing with stronger ones (more bases = more units to be produced + more weight on global policy)
think about it ! (I voted no, because I donīt want to declare war. Being attacked by Morgan is another thing)

	17-12-2002 21:50									#27
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Becaue Morgan is weak anyway, he's better as an ally! He'll do independant tech trading and research - all which benefits us directly - and we gain commerce. Should he turn on us, he's no threat. And what we don't need is a second front. We got plenty of room to expand yet.

All in all, there's absolutely no reason to war with Morgan. And every reason not to. Oh, and let's not forget; we're peacekeepers. Let's have some feeble excuse at hand at least before we start marching around in jackboots.

	18-12-2002 01:08									#28
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Considering Morgan is at the moment our ally, I vote we maintain that relationship. He is of more value in that role, for now. Should our pursuit of differing social agendas lead him to hate us and renounce the Pact, we will be in a different situation. And we should have this poll then.

If Morgan has been attempting to expand into the lands southeast of the Freshwater Sea, we can disrupt his efforts through our own expansion. With nowhere to found new bases, that threat will be gone. If he persists, then the threat situation will be different - again, hold th poll when the threat is more tangible.

	18-12-2002 03:03									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Earwicker Considering Morgan is at the moment our ally, I vote we maintain that relationship. He is of more value in that role, for now. Should our pursuit of differing social agendas lead him to hate us and renounce the Pact, we will be in a different situation. And we should have this poll then. If Morgan has been attempting to expand into the lands southeast of the Freshwater Sea, we can disrupt his efforts through our own expansion. With nowhere to found new bases, that threat will be gone. If he persists, then the threat situation will be different - again, hold th poll when the threat is more tangible.

No one is suggesting we attack now. To put it bluntly, were unprepared. This isn’t even an official poll in regards to our policy towards Morgan, and therefore has no consequence on our official policy towards Morgan.

I’m surprised that the mere proposal of a tentative plan for an attack on Morganite territory, assuming we go to war, sparked this much outcry. So far I’ve been defending the logistical feasibility of an attack on Morgan, over one of an attack on the Hive. Along with the fact that we have much to gain when, and if, we do decide to attack Morgan, at relatively little cost to us. The operation called for by DBTS involved relatively little diversion of industry to military production, and the creation of an assault force rather than an entire army.

I’m surprised at some of the hypocrisy seen here. Crying out on moral ground that the war against Morgan would be reprehensible, while at the same time claiming that we know what is best for the people of the Hive. We cannot have it both ways. If we want to impose our moral and socio-economic views on the Hive, then why not on Morgan?

	18-12-2002 03:16									#30
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quote: If we want to impose our moral and socio-economic views on the Hive, then why not on Morgan?

exactly! good point!