18-12-2002 05:22									#1
	Favorite and Shunned Governments Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I noticed reading through the PTW book one day that every civ has its favorite and shunned governments. Does this just mean that they tend to like or dislike other civs with these governments? Or is there a bonus to using the favorite government? Or maybe both?

	18-12-2002 06:16									#2
	Put an end to popups!

They are simply the government that each Civ prefers to be under, if possible, and which government that Civ won't go under at all.

ACK!

	18-12-2002 06:33									#3
	Support Apolyton

Actually, I asked Soren about this and he said that they will go under a shunned government if it makes good sense to. Hence nearly all civs will go communist in a protracted war and democratic under peace. They are just a little less likely to on any given turn.

	18-12-2002 06:54									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

So it doesn't give them any bonuses or anything? It is just the governments the ai will use the most or least?

	18-12-2002 06:57									#5
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is about it, yes.

ACK!

	18-12-2002 17:49									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I think this could have been a lot more interesting. History shows that nations tend to adopt the governments which are most successful at any point in time.

It would have been interesting also to have had relations strained by government types, so then faced with two big neighbours, one Communist, the other Democratic .. you would have to make a choice with whome you prefer a better working relationship ..

With the advent of mass education, you could also have people power .. maybe the citizens themselves could exert pressure (influenced by a forign power) by civil disobediance, to get the gov type they want.

I guess you could add detail to civ games forever, im just one of those that likes a dynamic system, that is difficult to track and follow like the real world, so its not just as simple as going to democracy as soon as you can. Im sure there are just as many who like to keep it simple.

	20-12-2002 12:35									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy It would have been interesting also to have had relations strained by government types, so then faced with two big neighbours, one Communist, the other Democratic .. you would have to make a choice with whome you prefer a better working relationship ..

This was actually well implemented in SMAC, with the added twist that it wasn't just "government" but "economy" and "social" models -- and AI Civs with radically different philosophies WOULD declare war on you for ideological reasons ...

-Oz

	20-12-2002 13:15									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, thats true .. that was one of the best parts of the SE model in smac, I often find the selection of government to be to formulaeic in civ (and CTP/CTP2 also) ..

It also adds an interesting twist the game, selecting government doesn't become a "As soon as ive invented" issue, more of a "Do i dare select it" ..

I also like the fact that Economics is stripped out of Government, not every Democracy is a market economy, not every democracy has low corruption etc etc ..

	20-12-2002 16:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why oh why was so much from SMAC left out of Civ3?

	20-12-2002 17:12									#10
	Put an end to popups!

As with many things in Dev projects, it was probably considered, prioritised, and never got the importance to get it in the final draft .. When your faced with limited resources, limited time, and bosses who only care about profits, you never get the game you most wished for.

If we remove the business model, and try a fan based project, you end up with an impossible task in drawing up the (whats in and whats not) list .. I guess we will never have the ideal civ ..

	20-12-2002 19:29									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy As with many things in Dev projects, it was probably considered, prioritised, and never got the importance to get it in the final draft .. When your faced with limited resources, limited time, and bosses who only care about profits, you never get the game you most wished for.

... EXCEPT when the models and algorithms are already developed!

Certainly, a great frustration for me has been the bundling of economic and mode-of-governance together into a single thing called "Government"!

I'm practically jumping through hoops (well, not that that isn't fun, metaphorically anyway) trying to build the considerations of religion into government and society development ...

... and think I'm doing a pretty good job ...

... But still ...

*sigh*

-Oz

	20-12-2002 22:29									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Actually the real reason (as stated by one of the devs) was that SE similar to SMAC would be unrealistic in the present world.....but it still would've been nice to have. One of the hardest parts of that game was selecting exactly which systems to use to best benifit your faction AND keep some semblance of peace until your ready for war.

	20-12-2002 23:35									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Switch Actually the real reason (as stated by one of the devs) was that SE similar to SMAC would be unrealistic in the present world.....but it still would've been nice to have. One of the hardest parts of that game was selecting exactly which systems to use to best benifit your faction AND keep some semblance of peace until your ready for war.

A direct clone of that system would have been unrealistic -- however, ironically, a SIMPLER system WOULD have been "realistic"! A matrix of what Marxist historiographers would call "mode of production" (organization of labor and material distribution taking technology into account) mapped against individual liberties or lack thereof would have sufficed nearly perfectly --

One axis from "communalism" to pure laissez-faire capitalism; a second axis from libertarian to fascist.

Examples:

Facism + Capitalism = Authoritarian (think Franco more than Hitler)

Fascism + Communalism = Stalinism

etc.

*sigh*

Maybe oh maybe there will be a Civ 4 ... or at least a DIY kit letting us get more to the guts of the engine ...

-Oz

	21-12-2002 00:59									#14
	Suffering from ads?

That would be interesting, Ozy.....as you develop the necessary techs, the axise would get longer, allowing more combinations.....

Perhaps a third axis could be added, that would define the type of gevernment, ie how ascension or decision making is done. It could go from monarchial, to electorial (Democratic, etc.), to oligarchial, totalitarian, Republic........imagine the "realistic" possibilities. A Semi-fascist, socialist, republic .

	21-12-2002 03:02									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The problem with the SMAC-like governments is that they would only appeal to the hardcore civ fans (like hang out here). The casual Civ fan would have complained about the complexity. (This is what happened with SMAC, very popular with hardcore, yet unpopular with the casual audience who make up 90% of Firaxis' sales).

	21-12-2002 04:12									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm The problem with the SMAC-like governments is that they would only appeal to the hardcore civ fans (like hang out here). The casual Civ fan would have complained about the complexity. (This is what happened with SMAC, very popular with hardcore, yet unpopular with the casual audience who make up 90% of Firaxis' sales).

Again, I'm advocating a simpler implementation than SMAC, where each choice caused cascading +/- values to a dozen different societal attributes.

I think all but the most casual player would find him/herself reacting positively (or am I confusing "positive" with "thoughtful" ...?) when choosing to, e.g., lessen or increase individual liberty, and to have tensions arising between neighbors who have implemented dramatically different extremes of the same.

-Oz

	21-12-2002 06:28									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I think that most players who frequent this site would like a scheme like that, I know would.

	21-12-2002 22:43									#18
	Support Apolyton

The only way I can think of to make it a little more like SMAC would be to have a whole lot of governments like Democracy-Free Market, Republic-Free Market, Republic-Socialist Market. So you pick a government with the economy type you want.