19-12-2002 01:00									#1
	If an animal is very similar to a human, why is it okay to kill it? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Summing up my post......if an animal is VERY similar to a human, why is it okay to kill/harm/commit a horrible act to an animal-but one you would NEVER do to a human?

Is it because they aren’t intelligent, and thus don’t deserve the same protection human beings get?

There are plenty of higher level animals which are on the level of, or close to human intelligence......primates and Cetacean's
(whale + dolphins) are basically on the same level we are.......and many other mammals are close......anyone who has owned dogs or cats for much of their life will tell you they are FAR from unintelligent.....

Dolphins have much larger, and even more organized brains then humans do......you COULD say they are more intelligent, though they haven’t had the luck to discover tool use, or the advantage of an education......look at a 15 year old human who has never been taught anything, and a 15 year old dolphin and tell me who displays more intelligence....

So, intelligence isn’t the issue?

Ah, its must be because were humans, and their animals, right?

Well what is a "human"? Someone who is born a vegetable, or becomes one is still considered human and given the protection that normal humans receive. Phenotype variants(Siamese twins) and genotype mutants(people with 6 fingers...downe syndrome....plenty of examples) are still considered human.

Ah, so its not the "body" then, its the DNA right?

Any student of science will tell you that we shair more then 97% of our DNA with primates.......and DNA between people can vary 3-7%….

Humans have emotions which animals do not?

Wrong again........higher level mammals have the same emotions we do...

Only humans use tools!

Wrong......primates use tools, dolphins have been known to use tools, otters use tools......

Humans have a soul-animals don’t!

You cant prove this any more then you can prove that humans have a soul....unless you can prove your opinion with facts, it has no merit, and thus it is despotic to force it upon others.

I know this comes off as VERY aggressive, and probably somewhat arrogant, but will someone PLEASE prove to me why higher levels mammals, or other sentient animals shouldn’t receive the same protection that humans do?

Im pissed off because someone I cannot disagree with if I value my job....she went on in great detail how it is fine to exploit monkeys etc........venting here.

	19-12-2002 01:03									#2
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I agree with you. I don't think it's okay to kill any animals, especially rolly-pollies. I suppose exceptions can be made when circumstances make it necessary. But in general, killing animals is not cool.

	19-12-2002 01:15									#3
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I am against cruelty to animals , because it stains the soul of the human that does that, for cruelty's sake.

But experiments are fine with me.

except dogs. Dogs ARE men's best friends, and betraying the firm bond that humanity has formed for them is wrong.

	19-12-2002 01:17									#4
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because we are hungry and that is the way nature works.

	19-12-2002 01:18									#5
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Obviously rats, mosquitoes, et al can transmit serious disease, thus surely they do not deserve anything.

On the other hand, as far as "higher level mammals", you're kinda right as far as the theory goes....Still, I believe we should "follow" the example of most other species and take care of our own mess first and foremost.

Btw, as far as I know (and I could be wrong), only humans have self-consciousness, opinions, the liberty to think in abstract terms, and the ability of acting in ways not related whatsoever to our own survival (which is most of what we do each day in our free time).

Any other animal can do all that?

	19-12-2002 01:19									#6
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and I don't agree with experiments on primates at all. I'm kind of OK with rats. But even rats have fear.

I hate Euthanasia of dogs and cats at the shelter. It breaks my heart. But I see no other solution.

As for hunting I'm OK with it for food purposes, but not just for trophies.

Other than that we shouldn't be killing mammals.

	19-12-2002 01:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am against cruelty to animals , because it stains the soul of the human that does that, for cruelty's sake. But experiments are fine with me. except dogs. Dogs ARE men's best friends, and betraying the firm bond that humanity has formed for them is wrong.

I agree with Azazel. Actually I agree so often with Azazel I'm making him my spokesman on all issues.

	19-12-2002 01:21									#8
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I agree that experiments are okay. It is unfortunate that they must be done, and hopefully we will one day live in a world where they will not be necessary.

	19-12-2002 01:22									#9
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My coworker insists it has been demonstrated that pigs have the same intelligence of a human 3 year old. I think she's high, but that's the argument.

Cruelty to any living thing for cruelty's sake is wrong, indeed.

	19-12-2002 01:23									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident because we are hungry and that is the way nature works.

Nature is an INCREDIBLY weak word, be specific.

	19-12-2002 01:24									#11
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It's OK to kill animals because it's messy and distressing to eat them alive.

	19-12-2002 01:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov My coworker insists it has been demonstrated that pigs have the same intelligence of a human 3 year old. I think she's high, but that's the argument. Cruelty to any living thing for cruelty's sake is wrong, indeed.

They are heh, pigs are actually really smart.

	19-12-2002 01:25									#13
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"Nature" isn't a weak word where I come from....

	19-12-2002 01:26									#14
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We only have to protect the "cute" animals (dolphins, otters, etc.) The more homely ones are OK to eat.

	19-12-2002 01:26									#15
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I'm a man of nature. So I don't consider it weak.

	19-12-2002 01:27									#16
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Kill them painlesly, process, pick off supermarket and eat.


Dolphins are not tasty so there is no problem.

	19-12-2002 01:27									#17
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quote: I agree with Azazel. Actually I agree so often with Azazel I'm making him my spokesman on all issues.

. That would increase my online time through the roof. But, what the heck.

	19-12-2002 01:28									#18
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how would you know dolphins aren't tasty! You murderer!!!

	19-12-2002 01:28									#19
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busted

	19-12-2002 01:30									#20
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no i havent eaten any but i rely on the tastes of my ancestors

if they were tasty we would eat them


i'm sure someone took a bite sometime down the line

	19-12-2002 01:32									#21
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or some other factor saved them
maybe they swirl a lot
who knows

	19-12-2002 01:33									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp "Nature" isn't a weak word where I come from....

There is no such thing as "natural"....nature is relative.

	19-12-2002 01:35									#23
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I hate violence against animals. It makes me sick to my stomach to see some of those animal rights commericals with the bears tied down with a chain through their nose.

But the fact of the matter is, we are higher on the food chain then all other animals. If we need something they can provide, i see no problem with killing them. But, we have to realize that killing the, to get a fancy lepord coat or some thing is wrong. Killing them to eat is ok (as long as we don't waste it).

but don't touch the dogs, special spot in my heart for them

*hugs his dog*

	19-12-2002 01:35									#24
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First of all, All of my principles, and morals are based on furthering the interests of the human race in the universe. Everything else is derived from that. Killing for cruelty's sake, is not good for humanity, It's bad, because it creates cruelty in the heart of the person, and may cause him to damage humans as well. I have no problem with forcefeeding animals to create bigger livers etc. because this increases the amount of the kind of meat we want.

I have no problem with whaling, despite them being these very smart beings ,etc. etc. My only problem is that they were getting extinct, and thus HUMANS wouldn't be able to enjoy them in various ways no more.

Dolphins are a tough call since I don't know enough their effects on the enviroment and their interactions with humans.

	19-12-2002 01:35									#25
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there's nothing relative in you being in front of a hungry lion though
or about the outcome

(although lions warn first before they eat you, they are gentlemen, they are not like panthers and tigers that get you in the back, without honour)

	19-12-2002 01:42									#26
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quote: Well what is a "human"? Someone who is born a vegetable, or becomes one is still considered human and given the protection that normal humans receive. Phenotype variants(Siamese twins) and genotype mutants(people with 6 fingers...downe syndrome....plenty of examples) are still considered human.

people with 6 fingers have a change in a gene or two. It's much more different.

but hey, you convinced me. Let's kill all people who suffer from Down's Syndrome. they have a chromosome more than us, for crying out loud.

	19-12-2002 01:46									#27
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We only have a duty to protect member of our own species. We are free to use the other species in any we choose, be it experimentation or food.

	19-12-2002 01:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Vesayen There is no such thing as "natural"....nature is relative.

Pointless obfuscation. You are well aware that what's referred to is the act of eating others so why labour the point.

	19-12-2002 01:52									#29
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BTW any of you going to Greece on the islands in the aegean make sure to spend sometime on the very back of the ship and you will see the dolphins jump from the water as they follow the ship.

it's a very nice site also the sea birds above your head also following the ship.

beautiful sites.

	19-12-2002 01:57									#30
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"Oh, yeah, sure, keep the cute furry animals:

-What are you?
-I'm an Otter.
-What do you do?
-I swim around on my back and do cute human things with my hands.
-You're free to go.

-What are you?
-I'm a cow.
-Get on the truck.
-I'm an animal, I have rights!
-You're a baseball glove, now get on the ****ing truck with your brother!"

-Dennis Leary

But seriously folks...

We eat animals. We're omnivors.

I agree that to the extent we can still eat the things we want to eat w/o being uncessarily cruel to the animals, we should do that.

I support medical experimentation because, as distasteful as it may be, it helps save human lives in the future, and that's our primary goal, isn't it? The survival of the species? It's sure as hell the other species' goal.

-Arrian