19-12-2002 01:10									#1
	Cavalry to Tank? Increase Your PM Length

In my mod I have been trying to decide whether calvary should upgrade to a tank or not. I have always played so they don't upgrade. Many people think a calvary can't upgrade to a tank. However, many calvary divisions of the past are now tank divisions. So what do you think?

	19-12-2002 01:27									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I'll vote no. I know it's a popular concept -- and in fact one that would be historically accurate. But it would unbalance the game further against the AIs (who never upgrade comprehensively or effectively).
I've grown to like the strategic dilemma of having to retread my military (literally and figuratively). A potential upgrade would come just when the human player tends to begin pulling away with the game anyway.

	19-12-2002 01:37									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I would say yes but...

Upgrading cavalry to tanks is OK if tanks are made more expensive. I pushed the cost up to 140 shields so it costs a noticeable amount of money to upgrade from 80 shield cavalry (actually I made cavalry 90 shields).

Without adjusting costs I would say no because it would be too easy to get a large tank force instantly and virtually for nothing.

	19-12-2002 02:12									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

why not? its historically accurate and good for gameplay...

i find upgrading large numbers of units expensive enough, cerb.

	19-12-2002 02:20									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Upgrades should be allowed (they are in all my mods).

However, the AI does need to be tuned further to take advantage of this - otherwise, it does unbalance the game a bit.

In multiplayer mode, this isn't much of an issue.

	19-12-2002 02:58									#6
	Tired of ads?

How about upgrading cavalry to paratroopers? Wouldn't that make more sense?

	19-12-2002 03:28									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 How about upgrading cavalry to paratroopers? Wouldn't that make more sense?

Well, with regards to Robber Baron's earlier post, the Cavalry-Tank upgrade is indeed the most historically accurate. The US Army also now has Cavalry divisions comprised of helicopters... but I don't think ANYONE would want to upgrade Cavalry to Civ3 Helicopters.

The paratrooper option is an interesting idea - it would certainly encourage more players to use paratroopers, although I still don't think they'd be very popular.

I mod my paratroopers to make them more effective in the modern age with an added movement point, amphibious ability, and increased offensive firepower.

	19-12-2002 03:40									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

yes

but with a hefty gold price of course (if that is possible to change the gold amount for upgrade).

	19-12-2002 04:06									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dissident yes but with a hefty gold price of course (if that is possible to change the gold amount for upgrade).

I don't know if it is or not... I think it's merely a factor of the cost of the new unit versus the cost of the old unit.

	19-12-2002 08:00									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Nope, I think it's good to have some cut of points.
Gives you more of a strategical choice IMO.

Do I spend money on them now, while they only still have short life-span, or do I invest in somehing else and wait for the next (more powerfumm) unit to arrive.

I they(all) upgrade throughout the ages, then it does become abit of a no-brainer IMVHO

	19-12-2002 09:21									#11
	Tired of ads?

In my old mod, I made cavalry upgradable to tank, simply because I don't like having tons of obsolete units in my building list. I recently discovered there is a way to tag units as obsolete once another is available, without this unit being necessarily able to upgrade.

Now, in my mod, cavalries are obsolete when Tanks are around, but don't upgrade to them though.

	19-12-2002 09:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

i would vote no as well...

	19-12-2002 12:54									#13
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by alva Nope, I think it's good to have some cut of points. Gives you more of a strategical choice IMO. Do I spend money on them now, while they only still have short life-span, or do I invest in somehing else and wait for the next (more powerfumm) unit to arrive. I they(all) upgrade throughout the ages, then it does become abit of a no-brainer IMVHO

Yeah, if you can upgrade straight through it's just too easy. Start with tons of horsemen, upgade and build more of the latest unit. I like having the choice in the early/mid industrial era of more cavalry or other infastructure.

	19-12-2002 15:20									#14
	Suffering from ads?

I actually renamed the civ3 cavalry unit to Dragoon and used Dark Sheer's Bandit unit as an Industrial-age upgrade; available with The Corporation and stats of 8/4/3, cost 90, blitz.

	19-12-2002 15:55									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by FNBrown The US Army also now has Cavalry divisions comprised of helicopters... but I don't think ANYONE would want to upgrade Cavalry to Civ3 Helicopters.

I included some Attack helicopter units. The UH-1D at the end of the industrial age and more sophisticated ones (Apache, ...) in the modern age.
I'd like to make them non-immobile air-units, but since the AI doesn't use these properly, I made them offensive ground units with 2-movement, all terrain as roads and very low defense values.
That's what I made cavalry upgrade to. Since not many of my cavalries survive the infantry-tank-period, there are not very many upgrades to those attack helis, but the cavalry vanishes from the build list.

	19-12-2002 16:25									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No, because upgrading movement 3 unit to movemet 2 unit is BAD design concept (downgrade of abilities).


P.S.
On the other hand I have no probelems with similar upgardes.
There are in original game too:

Like Inantry to Mech. Inf.
Or Galley to Transport

	19-12-2002 16:49									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Did anyone notice that defensive units are the best to upgrade ?

Makes sense to me anyway : defensive units should be kept in your cities, so they must upgrade from time to time.

Agressive units should be thrown into battle, not kept aside to be upgraded.

So, I vote no.

	19-12-2002 19:13									#18
	Tired of ads?

I vote no for no other reason except the AI doesn't seem to handle upgrades well.

	19-12-2002 19:15									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

I see the "No's" have a huge lead...

Oh, and I too voted no.

	19-12-2002 19:22									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by player1 No, because upgrading movement 3 unit to movemet 2 unit is BAD design concept (downgrade of abilities). P.S. On the other hand I have no probelems with similar upgardes. There are in original game too: Like Inantry to Mech. Inf. Or Galley to Transport

So you would never upgrade an Impi or Jaguar Warrior?

	19-12-2002 19:52									#21
	Suffering from ads?

The upgrade will, quite simply, break the game. Tank-MA upgrade is bad enough - in fact, even though it is quite logical, would be better off disallowed because of the human's ability to have 100 or more MA available the first turn after the discovery of Synthetic Fibers, but at least at this point, MI are available, as are Radar Towers, which pretty much makes defending easier.

But, being able to mass upgrade all of your cavs at once is insane. You will instantly have a tank army 10 times that of the computer. I usually am packing a treasury over 10,000 gold by this time, in order to rush-build as many tanks as possible, and if I was able to prebuild to "build" multiple tanks in every city at once, well, all I know is the AI would stand absolutely no chance at all.

	19-12-2002 22:58									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by metalhead The upgrade will, quite simply, break the game. Tank-MA upgrade is bad enough - in fact, even though it is quite logical, would be better off disallowed because of the human's ability to have 100 or more MA available the first turn after the discovery of Synthetic Fibers, but at least at this point, MI are available, as are Radar Towers, which pretty much makes defending easier. But, being able to mass upgrade all of your cavs at once is insane. You will instantly have a tank army 10 times that of the computer. I usually am packing a treasury over 10,000 gold by this time, in order to rush-build as many tanks as possible, and if I was able to prebuild to "build" multiple tanks in every city at once, well, all I know is the AI would stand absolutely no chance at all.

Then the AI needs to be fixed.

Besides, you could use this upgrade path in Multiplayer games against human opponents, and it'd make things real interesting.

	20-12-2002 03:04									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I recently discovered there is a way to tag units as obsolete once another is available, without this unit being necessarily able to upgrade. Now, in my mod, cavalries are obsolete when Tanks are around, but don't upgrade to them though.

How do you do that Spiffor?

	20-12-2002 04:27									#24
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, there isn't much argument against upgrading units to those of lower abilities in certain areas....look at Babylonian Bowman, or Samurai to Cavalry. But, like you said, it's bad design.

I think the Bowman thing could be rectified with it having a/d/m of 3/1/1, so it wouldn't lose anything on the upgrade.
For the Samurai, just have it replace Medieval Infantry, with an added defense to 4/3/1.

But then there's the Zulu Impi, and I have no idea how to fix that.

	20-12-2002 04:59									#25
	Tired of ads?

UUs are some sort of exeption.

Think of that like some sort of Dark Age.

	20-12-2002 08:24									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I vote no, because this would put the Germans at such a disadvantage regarding their UU that it would practically negate its advantage. They would have to manually replace all of their calvary for the panzers piecemeal, while rivals would be able to upgrade thier cavalry to tanks and have swarms of them before the Germans could deploy a sizeable force. Considering the troubles the Germans have in the pre-industrial eras, this is one more disadvantage their civ doesn't need.

	20-12-2002 12:25									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

IMHO cavalry should upgrade as follows (all requiring new units ) --

1. Armored cars.

2. Armored cavalry (WW2 era units equipped with light tanks, armored cars, recon infantry, etc.)

3. Airmobile (as opposed to paratrooper etc. -- think "Apocalypse Now").

An entirely new track. Flag them "Explore" AND "Offense" and rock'n'roll.

-Oz

	20-12-2002 14:52									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov I vote no, because this would put the Germans at such a disadvantage regarding their UU that it would practically negate its advantage. They would have to manually replace all of their calvary for the panzers piecemeal, while rivals would be able to upgrade thier cavalry to tanks and have swarms of them before the Germans could deploy a sizeable force. Considering the troubles the Germans have in the pre-industrial eras, this is one more disadvantage their civ doesn't need.

Not necessarily, you simply use the following upgrade path:

Cavalry > Tank > Panzer > Modern Armour

Since Germans can't build tanks, they're cavalry will simply upgrade to Panzers instead. And since other civs can't build Panzers, they'll skip that step and go straight to Modern Armour after Tanks.

If a civ cannot upgrade to a unit, they'll simply upgrade to the next one in the chain once they get the required tech.

	20-12-2002 16:05									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by FNBrown Well, with regards to Robber Baron's earlier post, the Cavalry-Tank upgrade is indeed the most historically accurate. The US Army also now has Cavalry divisions comprised of helicopters... but I don't think ANYONE would want to upgrade Cavalry to Civ3 Helicopters. The paratrooper option is an interesting idea - it would certainly encourage more players to use paratroopers, although I still don't think they'd be very popular. I mod my paratroopers to make them more effective in the modern age with an added movement point, amphibious ability, and increased offensive firepower.

The only Cav division we have is the 1st at Ft Hood, and it is a heavy division, heavier than the armor divisions even. It is a bunch of M1s and M2s. It hasnt been airmobile since the 70s. 1st Cav's history goes back to the old horse cavalry, but the units today who carry out the same role really are the ACRs. 2nd ACR is a concept unit right now, and apparently is a bunch of HMMVs with TOW launchers. 3rd ACR is a mix of M1s and M2s. 11th ACR gets to play OPFOR in the Mojave desert every month at NTC. Right now the only airmobile division is
the 101st Airborne (Air Assault) Division.

Since there is no mech inf type unit when the tank becomes available I'd say upgrading to tank is best. If modern era when modern armor and mech inf available I'd go with the mech inf.

	20-12-2002 19:28									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by zulu9812 Not necessarily, you simply use the following upgrade path: Cavalry > Tank > Panzer > Modern Armour Since Germans can't build tanks, they're cavalry will simply upgrade to Panzers instead. And since other civs can't build Panzers, they'll skip that step and go straight to Modern Armour after Tanks. If a civ cannot upgrade to a unit, they'll simply upgrade to the next one in the chain once they get the required tech.

Whoa. Thanks, Zulu! I had no idea you could do that. That's going to fix a lot of upgrade issues in my mod.

I still say no to the upgrade path. I think a dramatic jump in firepower like that should be done from scratch.