19-12-2002 03:23									#1
	SENATE BILL: Wartime Authorization of FAM to sign Treaties Remove this text

This bill will give the FAM flexibility to sign treaties, alliances, embargos, and pacts with other nations for the duration of our present war. It will allow the turnchat team the freedom to manage foreign relations during the chat without stopping to create a Senate Poll.

This poll will be open for 3 days.

Text of the bill:

"The Senate hereby defers to the President in giving permission to the FAM to sign any and all treaties with foreign nations for the duration of our war with Rome, Germany, and their allies.

By the passing of this bill, the Senate approves any treaty that is proposed by the FAM and approved by the President for the duration of this bill.

This bill expires when Apolyton is no longer in a state of war with any nation."

--Togas

	19-12-2002 03:38									#2
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My sugestion is that we sign alliances with Japan & India against China to make a turn this into a true World Wide War.

If Zulu joins the Axis of Evil, have our Asian partners attack them as well.

	19-12-2002 03:39									#3
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As it is of a temporary nature, I fully support this. If the other bill as discussed (perminant in nature) comes up (they are not mutually exclusive) then I will vote against it. I don't like the idea of making this perminant yet. Perhaps after sitting and thinking about it for a while I may change my mind.

GK

	19-12-2002 04:58									#4
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This bill is needed

	19-12-2002 05:05									#5
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Uhhh gee, how can I say no?

Mss

	19-12-2002 05:15									#6
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I'm just new today, so perhaps do don't understand things yet, but when does a war against some country and its allies end? I think never until one side has won. See WWI. If I'm not wrong, this law gives the government ultimate power on Foreign Affairs while the Senate is unable to control. Please explain before I vote.

- Aidun

	19-12-2002 05:22									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun I'm just new today, so perhaps do don't understand things yet, but when does a war against some country and its allies end? I think never until one side has won. See WWI. If I'm not wrong, this law gives the government ultimate power on Foreign Affairs while the Senate is unable to control. Please explain before I vote. - Aidun

Basically, the idea here is that the government currently has to keep stopping the game every single time another power enters the war and that heavily bogs down the game.

To prevent this, we would give the government the power to sign alliances against powers we are already at war with so that we can ensure that additional powers don't side with the enemy rather than us. The idea is that hte government could do that DURING A TURNCHAT (we do the game in 5-turn bursts) so that we don't have to horrendously slow down the game so the Senate has to vote on each individual treaty.

That said, you are correct that this does give the government VERY BROAD leeway to sign alliances treaties in time of war. If you're not keen to give the government that type of power, don't vote for it.

I think that basically covers the issue (others please add if I'm forgetting something).

(BTW, I wonder how an endorsement to give the government emergency powers comes from a President who happens to be using Palpatine as his avatar )

	19-12-2002 05:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos . (BTW, I wonder how an endorsement to give the government emergency powers comes from a President who happens to be using Palpatine as his avatar )

I am glad you said it... I was itching to say it

	19-12-2002 06:04									#9
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Right, I understand. Ill agree with it. Consociacialism, "let the government govern without too much parliamentary intervention", is after all a successive type of democracy.

Who can tell me btw about the turnchat? Or can I red is somewhere?

	19-12-2002 06:05									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos (BTW, I wonder how an endorsement to give the government emergency powers comes from a President who happens to be using Palpatine as his avatar )

I suggest we all keep a close eye on Palpa...um Arnelos....he could be up to something sheisty......

From the desk of Chairman Meshelic
Labor Party

	19-12-2002 07:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Who can tell me btw about the turnchat? Or can I red is somewhere?

WHEN: For some reason, I can't seem to find the thread I posted for people to tell me their time availability (stupid cloaking thread bug... I seem to be the only one who has this problem). There's a thread (if you can see it) that's called something like "Time for First Chat of Term 7 (scheduling problems....)". Watch that thread to see for when I eventually post a TIME for the chat (or I may post a new thread, probably in all caps).

WHERE: Chats are always held (now that it works properly) on the Apolyton IRC server. If you have an IRC client, you can use that. If not, you can use Apolyton's javachat client (click on "chat" at the top of the screen). The channel name on the server is #civ3dem. If you need help with using IRC and getting on the Apolyton server, adaMada wrote some excellent instructions somewhere... hopefully he's watching this thread.

adaMada, if you're reading this, please post a link to your instructions for getting on 'poly chat. Thanks

	19-12-2002 07:17									#12
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Aidun,

Found the thread about chat time - CLICK HERE. It's also permanently at the top of the thread list (for now...) if you're looking for it.

	19-12-2002 20:59									#13
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War Werriousness is based on loss of units on both sides in foreign territory, so even if we stay in a technical state of war but aren't really fighting (read: China & Zulu), War Werriousness won't increase but instead will slowly decrease over time.

(Yes, Zulu isn't at war with us yet, but since they have an embargo with the Chinese against us, they'll be declaring war against us soon.)

Our focus is going to be on elimenating Germany.

Russia & the Irq combined should be enough to eliminate Rome & the Babs, especally if Greece helps out.

Once we get India & Japan to declare war on China (making it truely a world-wide war) either India or China will elimate the other.

Japan is in no danger of falling to China because of how bad the AI is with sea invasions; the worst that could happen to Japan is that they lose one of their smaller islands and temporarly lose a city on a bigger island but take it back shortly thereafter.

I dought that the Zulu's could be wiped out by the AI players, but that island is small enough where it could happen.

	20-12-2002 00:44									#14
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Japan is in no danger of falling to China because of how bad the AI is with sea invasions; the worst that could happen to Japan is that they lose one of their smaller islands and temporarly lose a city on a bigger island but take it back shortly thereafter.

Japan being taken over by China?!

Japan is something like 6-8 technologies ahead of China in research and at least twice China's size. We shouldn't be worried about Japan getting hurt, we should worry about Japan invading pathetically primitive China and making Japan a more major rival down the road...

	20-12-2002 01:12									#15
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I dought we have to worry about China being overrun by Japan. At most Japan get's 2 or 3 cities while India on the same land mass gets the rest of the Chinese cities.

	20-12-2002 02:45									#16
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I'd see greater offensive drives made in China by Ghandi than the Japanese. I agree with joncnunn, the odds of a seaborn invasion of Chinamen into Japan is very unlikely.... At best I could see the Japanese making a landing offshore and capturing a city, but I think the Indians will gain the upper hand in China.

Although my own experience suggests occasionally otherwise (even the AI in Civ2 made some really good D-Day style seaborn invasions sometimes).

I have the feeling that this war will not be truly "world" war in the sense that we know it, mostly just aligned nations fighting in isolated regions. Of course, I could be wrong, but doubt it.

Meshelic

	20-12-2002 03:04									#17
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The Great War was heavy combat in Europe & Near Middle East with sprodic fighting in isolated regions in the rest of the world.

Even World War II was closer to 2 similatos large scale wars than 1 war. (Japan & Russia stayed at peace until Aug 1945, after Germany was defeated.)

quote: Originally posted by Meshelic I'd see greater offensive drives made in China by Ghandi than the Japanese. I agree with joncnunn, the odds of a seaborn invasion of Chinamen into Japan is very unlikely.... At best I could see the Japanese making a landing offshore and capturing a city, but I think the Indians will gain the upper hand in China. Although my own experience suggests occasionally otherwise (even the AI in Civ2 made some really good D-Day style seaborn invasions sometimes). I have the feeling that this war will not be truly "world" war in the sense that we know it, mostly just aligned nations fighting in isolated regions. Of course, I could be wrong, but doubt it. Meshelic

	20-12-2002 03:13									#18
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hi ,

great

have a nice day

	20-12-2002 08:04									#19
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Bumping to front page

E_T

	20-12-2002 08:45									#20
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Actually, it's rather interesting how this world war is in comparison to World War II.

You have the Roman Empire (Mussolini's Fascist Italy) allied in war (well not technically allied but fighting the same enemy) with the German's (Hitler's 3rd Reich), with the Babylonians joining in (like Iraq, who was a major Reich supporter) and the Chinese (an asian nation like Hiro's Japan)...

In this case it seems that Apolyton would be equivalent to both the U.S.S.R. and the U.S.A.....: not too shabby.

There are other similiarities too.....but I won't name them all right now. There's actually more than a person would think.....

Meshelic

	20-12-2002 19:08									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Aidun, Found the thread about chat time - CLICK HERE. It's also permanently at the top of the thread list (for now...) if you're looking for it.

Thanks Arnelos. I didn't know where to look for it.