19-12-2002 04:56									#1
	What's up with the Priveter and Army's Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ok I deffinitly think that fire power and armor should be added to the game to keep little ships from killing big ships. Also Priveters should have there stats ajusted, I had 2 Priveters take on one Treme and the Treme one. Also it is way to hard to get a leader. In my most recent game with AI on lowest dificulty It took me an enormus amount of time to get a Leader and after that it was simple enough to make alot more armies.

	19-12-2002 05:00									#2
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Firepower and "armor" (which is hit points, btw, at least from the Civ2 standpoint) are functionally the same, which is why firepower was removed from Civ2. The strange results you are encountering are the result of the low hit points in Civ3 compared to the much higher hp values in Civ2. You can mod these hp values higher or find a mod that does this on the forums.

I find leaders are rare, but not too hard to get with a good war. I like their scarcity; it makes them valuable and more "great."

	19-12-2002 05:08									#3
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Firepower and "armor" (which is hit points, btw, at least from the Civ2 standpoint) are functionally the same, which is why firepower was removed from Civ2.

But there not the same. Armor can be used for ajustment and not "hit points". Take for example you have a tank with a higher armor value, but the same hit points. And fire power would have to do with the punch they pack. You could keep the Priveter's AD low but increase the fire power and it would be very hard to beet it with the lowest see unit in the game. When 2 units square off, Firepower and armor would be calcualted first then added into the AD totals. It would change the whole complection of the game.

	19-12-2002 05:24									#4
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I agree, I find privateers almost worthless as they lose almost every battle. Even a veteran Privateer against a regular galley. I find if you fortify privateers in enemy waters, they AI will often attack it and lose.

	19-12-2002 06:08									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Big_Fish But there not the same. Armor can be used for ajustment and not "hit points". Take for example you have a tank with a higher armor value, but the same hit points. And fire power would have to do with the punch they pack. You could keep the Priveter's AD low but increase the fire power and it would be very hard to beet it with the lowest see unit in the game. When 2 units square off, Firepower and armor would be calcualted first then added into the AD totals. It would change the whole complection of the game.

No, here is what I meant:

I understand that they are different concepts.

However, they are functionally the same thing. That is, there isn't anything you can do with hp and fp that you can't do with hp only. For example, fp makes a unit deal more damage... that's the same thing as giving the defending unit more hp, and is mathematically the same as giving the attacking unit more hp. I understand that you may visualize them differently, but in actuality fp doesn't do anything that hp can't do. That's why it was removed.

EDIT: As for armor, the ability to resist damage is measured by a unit's defense value. No armor is necessary.

	19-12-2002 07:33									#6
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 EDIT: As for armor, the ability to resist damage is measured by a unit's defense value. No armor is necessary.

Ok I get about firepower, but if it was my way there would be rounds where neither side got injered that would be if the defence did not win but there armor saved them.

	19-12-2002 08:34									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Big Fish Ok I get about firepower, but if it was my way there would be rounds where neither side got injered that would be if the defence did not win but there armor saved them.

Well, Civ runs on a system where all rounds result in the loss of a hit point on all sides. I can see how that might be interesting, but it could also lead to very long, drawn out fights where units sat around for a while with very little damage being taken. That would be annoying in single player, and downright awful in MP.

	19-12-2002 10:03									#8
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quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 I agree, I find privateers almost worthless as they lose almost every battle. Even a veteran Privateer against a regular galley. I find if you fortify privateers in enemy waters, they AI will often attack it and lose.

You fail to see that Privateers are not ment for a standy Naval force. They are ment to harrass and make the AI's life more miserable and all the while not declareing war by doing so. If they were more powerful, then everyone would use them and not fear war.

	20-12-2002 03:57									#9
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(to the above post)

Vatican, eh?

I find losing a hitpoint or two on their galleys not very effective. I don't see how they'd be harrassed well...if that makes sense. I dont think the cost of a privateer is worth those several hitpoints.

I think they shouldve included a way to take out some of their treasuries by maybe robbing a galley of some sorts, but maybe not destroying it, or maybe capturing it, etc.

	20-12-2002 05:54									#10
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Damaged ships take on water and don't move very well.

Maybe Privateers should just "poke a few holes" in those galleys. They only move at 1 until they're restored to full health. Or maybe they sink within X moves if not returned to port.

	20-12-2002 07:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 They are ment to harrass and make the AI's life more miserable and all the while not declareing war by doing so. If they were more powerful, then everyone would use them and not fear war.

I just noticed somthing, I have built 10 priveters, the enemy (british) only have galleys, 9 priveters have been sunk to only one Galley. Great way to "harrass shiping".

	20-12-2002 07:52									#12
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If you need for privateers to be more battle worthy, use the Editor. For instance, I have tried increasing their A/D/M from 2/1/3 to 2/2/4, and gave the bombardment B/RoF of 2/1 (same stats as for frigate except for the lower RoF).

	20-12-2002 07:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Big Fish I just noticed somthing, I have built 10 priveters, the enemy (british) only have galleys, 9 priveters have been sunk to only one Galley. Great way to "harrass shiping".

And spearmen kill tanks. That's the combat system. If you want to know more about this, PM Coracle.

quote: Originally posted by bobbo008 (to the above post) Vatican, eh?

A problem?

	20-12-2002 07:59									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Thrawn05 And spearmen kill tanks. That's the combat system. If you want to know more about this, PM Coracle.

I noteced, that is what is wrong with this system.

	20-12-2002 08:08									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Big Fish I noteced, that is what is wrong with this system.

And the topic has been beaten to death. That is why Firaxis put HP values int he editor, so you have units like tanks more HP, and perhaps even privateers?

	21-12-2002 02:26									#16
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Don't forget with privateers you need 2 or 3 of them to have effect. A single one is worthless except as a distraction.

== PF

	21-12-2002 04:37									#17
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If you don't like privateers, don't build them. Build ironclads and then declare war. It's much more fun.

	21-12-2002 09:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by planetfall Don't forget with privateers you need 2 or 3 of them to have effect. A single one is worthless except as a distraction. == PF

My rule of thumb:

For every unit the enemy has, build ten.


That way you'll be on the safe side.

	22-12-2002 01:18									#19
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do you guys know how to work the civ editor in Play the World? I just got it and cant figure it out.

I probably sound like an annoying person who's new to the board, which is what I am, but an answer would be appreciated