19-12-2002 10:30									#1
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Do's and Don't of Teaching English Overseas:

-Do search for and go to Dave's ESL Cafe, and lurk on their forums for a month.

-Do follow their links to find out the 'blacklisted' schools, particularly in Eastern Europe but there are many in Korea too. You don't want to arrive and the 'school' is a post box and they've beaten you up and stolen your passport (Point: Never teach in Russia)

-Do get your documents together and make notarized copies (cost me $25 cnd to do this). They'll want: a notarized copy of your degree, and any additional certification you pick up.

-Do make sure you have a 4 year degree in something from a UNIVERSITY, they don't take colleges or technical schools.

-Accreditations:

1.TESOL certification is nice if you take lots of notes to actually get something out of it. Also, steal their syllabus planner; it's the only thing of value I got. You don't even really need it, and seeing that it takes $450-$1000 dollars for 2 months I classify it as a semi-scam. The people who teach them will tell you a lie: You don't need a degree, TESOL is good enough. It's actually the other way around, TESOL (teacher of english to speakers of other languages) is resume padding. Technically it's true, because yes you can go to Tanzania or someplace and make no money and live in a hut with TESOL.

2. CELTA or TOEFL certification costs about the same, but it's actually useful. If you want to do this as a career, then get it because it will open up the 'second tier' of jobs for you after you have experience.

-DON'T take the first offer, and DON'T base your decision on money!! Remember, it sounds funky to live in a remote village, but you will be there at least a year. Get a big city.

-Most important things to do:
-Don't let the recruiter be a complete buffer. DO talk to the actual manager you'll be working with and make sure that they speak good english!!!, have experience, and the school has been running for more than a year.

-Do get an apartment in walking distance, or paid transport costs. 1200 won a day adds up for bus fares, plus in the winter waiting for the unpredictable Asian bus is not fun.

-In the ads, you'll see a lot talking about 'no split shifts'. No slpit shifts is good. When you talk to the manager MAKE SURE YOU CLARIFY WHAT THE HOURS ARE EXACTLY, because in Asian cultures the relation between employers and contracts is 'personal' the great 2-8 over the phone may quickly turn into 10:00 to 9:00.

-Forget about overtime. In korea, to get overtime is almost impossible unless you work all the time.

-Kindergarten: Most schools will ask this 'Do you think you could work kindergarten if you had to?' unless you're totally hardcore, don't fall for it. Asian kindergarten is very long, and early, and very psycho. Unless the school is exclusively a kindergarten school, make it clear you can't/won't or they will think you just said, 'yes, I want to work split shifts'.

-Money: 1.9 mil is the rock bottom I'd settle for. All the 1.8's you'll see advertised are for suckers or bad schools. I make 2.1 mil. Please remember, that even though this is only about $2400 Cnd a month, most things are much, much cheaper here. Outside of Seoul, most FLTs eat out every night, for example.

-Moonlighting: many people come here to make money. The 'goldrush' time is dying as the government cracks down, but it is still possible to do illegal 'privates' on the side for big money. It is very common in Seoul. There are severe consequences if you are caught, fines and ticket confiscated, you'll never be allowed back, etc. My advice: If you really want to, make sure that you do it through the agency of a 'vet' FLT who has contacts, the guy on the street may be a g-man.

-Make sure you talk about vacations with your manager, not recruiter. The recruiter only knows what they need to know to get you in the door. For example, make sure that weekends and sick days are not considered 'vacations'.

I say go for it. Don't let anyone tell you that it's too risky, or wierd, or whatever. It's a great, rewarding job.

I am 23 years old, with a BA, from a family of low-income dope farmers. If I had stayed in Canada, these years would have been a series of desperate job searches, always on the edge, caught in lack of appropriate experience, etc etc. There I would be another despised BA with hopes of a career, like the rest of the horde.
Here I am a 'Sun sang neem' and students move to get out of my shadow.

Do it, do it for mom, God, and the good folks at the 3M corporation who invented the 'post-it'.

	19-12-2002 11:30									#2
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Would it be possible to re-name this thread? No one would guess that it's about such a worthy topic, teaching English abroad!

Seeker's advice is great. I'll add a few things based on my experience ...

quote: The people who teach (TESL) will tell you a lie: You don't need a degree, TESOL is good enough. It's actually the other way around

As someone who now manages and hires foreign teachers, I can tell you this is certainly true, at least in China. TESL certificates dont' mean anything except that you spent some money and time somewhere. They say nothing about your teaching ability. Some of the best teachers I know have no certification or formal training in teaching. They have something better: a natural ability and inclination to teach.

Having said that, here in China certificates are much more important than in the less bureaucratic west. So if your resume or experience is weak, a TESL certificate may help get you a good first job. However, many schools and training centers (like ours) do not require them at all, and hire more on the basis of teaching experience and personality.

I would also suggest moving somewhere first, then securing a teaching job. Signing on for a job in another country, sight unseen, is risky. You have no idea what the school is like or where it is. Some here in China are in reality so far from the nearest town that it's like living in a luxurious prison.

Pick a city that both interests you and has a reasonably high demand for English teachers. Write a great cover letter that explains what you are doing in that country, and why you want to teach English (don't go overboard, be credible).

	19-12-2002 11:44									#3
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"I would also suggest moving somewhere first, then securing a teaching job. "

I've heard this before, but as a first timer the idea of just hopping on a plane and coming over was intimidating, I didn't know how much demand there was, etc.

Also, in Korea the government requires that you get your working VISA outside the country through your sponsor.

China had interested me a lot I must admit, it is the 'up and comer' in Asia, especially Shanghai or Hong Kong. But I felt that it wasn't really established yet and they pay for inexperienced persons such as myself was too low.

What sort of positions do you think I will qualify after completing a full year?
Would they consider it not enough experience?

If yuan is about 10-1 on the Cnd dollar (I think?), can I make 230 000-250 000 yuan or more?

	19-12-2002 11:44									#4
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What's TOEFL? The only one I know is a standard test: Test of English as a Foreign Language.

BTW do you need to be a native speaker?

	19-12-2002 11:47									#5
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TOEFL is the test.

In Korea, passing this test is a big deal.

The certification I'm referring to is the many courses which teach you to teach the test. I don't know how valid it is for real teaching, but it looks good, 'TOEFL Certified' seems to impress some people.

	19-12-2002 12:50									#6
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Hm, do you know how far back they keep the results? It was aeons ago I took the test and aced it.

	19-12-2002 13:48									#7
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My 2 cents (which is to say, my 31,000 Turkish Lira):

Remember, too, that English isn't the only thing you can teach abroad. Teaching English isn't for everyone -- for one thing, its skill-oriented rather than knowledge/content oriented, which is makes a big difference in classroom activity and overall workload. But there are English-language schools throughout the developed and developing world, and in the developing world in particular they tend to cater to the nations' elites (i.e., cost a lot, pay well). I haven't done this myself -- I've observed it from the outside, since my daughter is in such a school -- so I can't offer any concrete advice on how to get started. But it's worth knowing about the option.

	19-12-2002 17:34									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker (Point: Never teach in Russia)

Damn true, esp. in Siberia. Russian pupils eat guys like Seeker on breakfast and send remains back to Canada. As long as you don't have black belt in some kind of martial art and unable to drink bottle of vodka by yourself, (non-stop of course) you would be a stranger here and even then it isn't recomended to teach here. our streets are full of brown bears with balalaykas.

	19-12-2002 17:41									#9
	Re: Re: For PH and anyone else interested Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Serb our streets are full of brown bears with balalaykas.

	20-12-2002 06:45									#10
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Seeker-

I'm just in the process of making the arrangements to go to Japan (around March hopefully). Can you tell me anything about getting non-resident status for RevCan purposes?(I'd like to keep at least some of my $$$ after all) In the depression thread you mentioned not sending money back home, but I still need to pay OSAP. Any advice you can give is appreciated. BTW thanks for the Dave's tip, I'll check it out.

	20-12-2002 07:29									#11
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Phone OSAP.

They give them your bank info, and they will set up direct withdrawal.*

unfortunately, only from a Canadian account, so you will have to send som money every month, you need your sponsor's approval and passport to do this.

Also, Revenue canada is aware of income you send to your canadian b.a., as is osap.

In Korea, you might want to just bite the Canadian tax bullet if you don't have a US account you can wire to, because there is a big exit tax if you leave with $10 000+.

Serb: I run into more than enough Russian hoodlums and whores here in seoul. I've reached my quota.

*EDIT they will still send their package to your last Canadian address though, even if you ask them not to. Don't worry, you don't have to fill out th form and courier it back or anything, if they have your persmission they will jut start to withdraw automatically, six months after grad. (which is ****ing 225.00 a month for me, the vampires)

	20-12-2002 07:35									#12
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Aren't you supposed to be under 35 or is that just the JET program?

	20-12-2002 07:51									#13
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That is just the JET program and other 'cultural exchange' programmes.

Japan is nearing saturation though, I must warn.

Korea is the current 'boom town' for english.

BTW: wierd thing: the Korean schools will ask for two passport sized photos. One is for legal purposes.

The other is...,well, literally it's to see how ugly you are. They won't hire you if you look ugly, especially in Korea, because they will use your image for advertising purposes (yes, even yours truly is on over 40 000 flyers and a website, but I will never give any clue what my school is), so if you aren't 'pretty' enough then forget about it.

	20-12-2002 10:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker ...so if you aren't 'pretty' enough then forget about it.

That explains it. You are pretty! That is why Russian gay hoodlums haunt you all over Seoul.

P.S. Sorry for this threadjacking, guys.

	20-12-2002 10:42									#15
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They don't want you leaving ugly mized Korean-Anglo babies all over the place, only pretty ones.

	20-12-2002 11:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Serb: I run into more than enough Russian hoodlums and whores here in seoul. I've reached my quota.

Please, tell us more about your personal experience with Russian hoodlums in Seoul. I'm sure you have pretty much to tell (it's you who said that you've reached your quota)

	20-12-2002 13:06									#17
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That is soooo ****ing weird. Seeker, post a pic of you, so I can see if I would be 'up to snuff', eh?

	21-12-2002 07:18									#18
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Are you kidding?

Serb:
1. The whorehouse or 'anma' across the street is stuffed with Russian pimps and whores.

2. At the nightclubs, there are Russian women who offer to sleep with you if you'll 'marry' them.

3. Groups of young Russians that set off my 'pimp radar' walk the streets at night in this area and behave agressively and drunkenly.

4. Almost every store or business I frequent will ask me if I'm Russian with a forbidding expression. When they find out I'm Canadian they're like, 'why didn't you say so' and open up completely.

5. There are a bunch of Russians in fancy cars with tinted windows in run down neighbourhoods. They stay in one place all day, unless the police come. I wonder what they could be doing? (hint: starts with 'deal' and ends with 'ing')

6. Russian women on the busses dress like whores and wear too much makeup and are rude and unfriendly. They don't have the comradeship that expats from other countries do. Instead, to be near a Russian in South Korea one feels a 'bad energy', as if invisible waves of sickness and disease were radiating from them.

	21-12-2002 08:17									#19
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That reminds me of the time my geopolitics professor was in Istanbul. In the apartment above him, he could hear a russian pimp arguing with his hooker about something… He heard things getting violent and he went up to protect her…
However when he arrived there she was holding the pimp out the window by his crotch area…
He walked in, looked, and walked away very very quickly.

	21-12-2002 09:21									#20
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OMG, LOL, what a near-apocalyptic picture of the world bullied and terrorized by Russians. This is a sad illustration of possible consequences of an economic collapse.

Let me, in the best Korean tradition , apologize for my compatriots.

On a more positive note, the more of such people are abroad, the less remain in Russia. So perhaps teaching in Russia is not as dangerous as you judge by those people.

	21-12-2002 09:23									#21
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Why does Korea let Russians in then?

	21-12-2002 10:41									#22
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quote: the idea of just hopping on a plane and coming over was intimidating, I didn't know how much demand there was, etc.

You should be able to do some research on the web concerning demand before you choose a destination. Sure, it takes guts, but only incrementally more than accepting an overseas teaching job to begin with. Far better, I think, to take the chance and go through some personal interviews and choose your own job then to end up miserable, tied to a one-year contract in some hellhole town or "language mill" on the outskirts of town.

quote: Also, in Korea the government requires that you get your working VISA outside the country through your sponsor.

In China you can teach on a business visa. You can enter on a tourist visa and switch inside the country. Or you can switch from either student or business visas to a full-on work visa (if your school will sponsor you), also without having to exit and re-enter.

quote: But I felt that it (i.e. China teaching job market) wasn't really established yet and they pay for inexperienced persons such as myself was too low.

Established? There are now something like 3,000 language schools in Shanghai! Most of them are tiny mom-and-pop shops (e.g. Chinese English teacher hangs a shingle over their door), but there are still many job listings to choose from at establishments of all types. The demand here is unquenchable ... and growing. If you are a native speaker, and have any experience at all in teaching anything, you an get a job. If you have a TESL certificate, that can also easily land your first job. However, many people start with no relevent experience or certification. Once you get that first job anywhere, you can easily line up more work.

Of course, pay varies. Experienced freelanceers can easily pick 130 - 150 rmb/hr for typical oral English teaching gigs, sometimes a good deal more for corporate jobs. If you can teach IELTS preparation (the standard test used for students intending to study at universities in Canada, Australia, NZ, and UK) you can probably get 150 - 180 rmb/hr. If you can keep up an average of 15 hours per week at 150/hr, your income will be about equal to a Chinese mid-level manager in a large corporation. In other words, you can live very comfortably on about half of your income, and take time off for traveling, etc.

Another common pay arrangement is to teach "full-time" (definition varies) at a school or training center that will pay you a salary plus provide you with room and sometimes board as well. Salaries for this type of work are usually in the 6,000 rmb/mo + apartment range, and often include return airfare home after successful completion of a one-year contract.

quote: What sort of positions do you think I will qualify after completing a full year? Would they consider it not enough experience?

You already have enough experience to teach in China.

quote: If yuan is about 10-1 on the Cnd dollar (I think?), can I make 230 000-250 000 yuan or more?

230,000? I think you have miscalculated the cost of living here. At that rate you could own a gorgeous house and a car! That's upper-executive level pay. You should be able to earn over 100,000 rmb/yr at 15 hrs/wk over the course of the year. More if you get lucrative gigs, are willing to work more hours, etc. It's not too difficult to line up other English-related work as well. I do editing and voice acting, friends are on tv series and in films. Only requirement is a white face. At a 100,000 rmb/year you can lead a comfortable upper-middle class life in Shanghai.

	21-12-2002 14:17									#23
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"6,000.00 CNY China Yuan Renminbi = 1,124.05 CAD
Canada Dollars "

"2,100,000.00 KRW
South Korea Won = 2,703.138 CAD
Canada Dollars" (plus 1 months bonus pay for completing the contract)

According to XE universal currency converter (per month).

So SK is still a better deal, it sounds like you're doing a wider variety of stuff. Maybe some other year.

Monolithic One: You would get in.

Russians: I'm sure there are some nice ones, somewhere.

UR: I'm aware of the COL difference, but I plan on going back to Canada, where 20 000 bucks can dissapear if you sneeze to hard.

What I'm really interested in is speculation about China letting its currency 'float' (somewhat), that would change the whole picture, what are the odds of it happening?

	21-12-2002 17:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker So SK is still a better deal, it sounds like you're doing a wider variety of stuff. Maybe some other year.

Seems that way, although the living costs in China is lower.

quote: Originally posted by Seeker UR: I'm aware of the COL difference, but I plan on going back to Canada, where 20 000 bucks can dissapear if you sneeze to hard.

Wrong person.

	22-12-2002 11:14									#25
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"Wrong person."

d'oh!!

	24-12-2002 07:44									#26
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quote: So SK is still a better deal quote: Seems that way, although the living costs in China is lower.

UR is right. You can't compare by just converting currencies to a common one, because that does not take into account the local buying power of the currency in question. This is the classic mistake of those who quote mortifyingly small incomes of "exploited" workers in developing nations. You have to compare your SK salary to SK's cost of living and the Chinese salary to China's cost of living.

For example, with regards to the US dollar, the exchange rate is about US$1 = 8 renminbi.
But, nearest I can figure, the relative buying power is closer to US$3 = 5 renminbi.

A big difference! A decent dinner at a local restaurant will cost you something like $17 in the US, but only about 25 rmb here, not 135 rmb (which you'd arrive at by using the exchage rate).

	24-12-2002 09:32									#27
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25 RMB is cheap. What's in it?

	24-12-2002 11:00									#28
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I think teaching overseas is a great idea for the adventurous among you

Nothing like living in foreign countries to broaden your horizons. Every day is an adventure and you feel really alive.

Just be sure you retain a secure financial base in the country you come from.

I knew Westerners in Bangkok who basically could never go home because they had not built up any assets or savings in thier home country. They were respectable folk with good jobs but would be destitute if they went back. It was really sad.

I knew other people who had rental properties and other income like pensions which basically allowed them to live like kings because of the much lower cost of living in the Third World. This is the preferable situation.

Its okay if you're just a kid and you have your parents behind you but for those who are a bit older, 30's and up, you need to have an exit strategy from this kind of work/life. Don't sell the home to teach abroad!

	24-12-2002 11:14									#29
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Having spent many hours looking into it, but not actually doing it, I feel well qualified to say it is an excellent thing to spend some time doing. A friend of mine may even do it soon.

Either way AH is quite right, I met similar types in Bangkok. Unless you particularly want to be divorced from your native land (not such a bad thing), always have a backup at home. It isn't fun being screwed over somewhere wierd and foreign.

And if you go to Japan to teach (a personal ambition of mine), you get paid sh*tloads!

	24-12-2002 11:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Seeker Are you kidding? Serb: 1. The whorehouse or 'anma' across the street is stuffed with Russian pimps and whores. ... Blah...blah...blah...rasist crap...blah...blah...blah 6. Russian women on the busses dress like whores and wear too much makeup and are rude and unfriendly. They don't have the comradeship that expats from other countries do. Instead, to be near a Russian in South Korea one feels a 'bad energy', as if invisible waves of sickness and disease were radiating from them.

You should change your neighborhood. The things you described have nothing common with nationality, it's about cheap neighborhoods, where poor people live. I wonder if in cheap Canadian neighborhoods things are better.
Have a nice day, you... nevermind.

P.S. Keep telling your fascinating stories about bad Russians. I guess the real reason why you hate us is Russian gay with whom you...