19-12-2002 21:45									#1
	OOC: Mini-Maps Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

While there has been some discussion about the "out of game" nature of mini-map trades, and I do agree with the opinions of those who feel this may be a cheat ... I'm not one to be left out if "everyone else is doing it."

And it does appear to be happening or suggested from the diplomacy PMs I've seen.

I received this PM from Legoland this morning:

quote: Nimitz wrote on 19-12-2002 08:08: The Legos would like to know if you give a pic of your current mini-map in exchange for a pic of ours this the answer to location problem our people decided on?

I wrote him back saying we would make the exchange with his team and we would keep their map confidential if they so requested.

I need someone to volunteer to send them our map and to then super-impose our map to theirs so that we can figure out if it's possible to go meet them.

Who's up for the job?

--Togas

	19-12-2002 22:17									#2
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If we are sending them a minimap, what are the expections of it? Does it have to be current? How about a 4000BC minimap, that doesn't show Madrid or our exploration? Also, this is our first opportunity to disseminate disinformation - we could alter the minimap to show a false location. Can we discuss these options?

Current minimap, 3400BC


Original minimap, 4000BC


False minimap, 4000BC


I must warn anyone from simply saving these images and sending them. The filenames themselves convey information. ( the actual 4000BC minimap has "true" in the filename ) Come to think of it, the filenames also present an opportunity for disinformation - we can send a file with "true" in the name to those we're giving a false map, which would imply that we're giving false maps to other civs, but not them. I love intrigue!

	19-12-2002 22:29									#3
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Reply from Nimitz about the mini-map issue.

I suggested to him that we just trade "last turn's" mini-maps. He replied:

quote: well are older maps don't tell much other than where up and down we are, the latest give much more info and plus the vote is leaning heavly twords the current mini-map as I a day or two is needed I was the one who convinced them to mini-map.

Direct quote. He's a bit unintelligible, but it seems that their curiosity is getting the best of them. They probably want to know a bit more about the world through our minimap. Maybe we should start (in our casual chatter) to brag about what an interesting world we've discovered around us.

--Togas

	19-12-2002 22:30									#4
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just by looking at the shape of the 4000 B.C. mini-map, you can tell that we are surrounded by hills or mountains. Otherwise, more terrain would have been displayed. I think we should distill it down to a single dot or replace it completely with a symbol that represents our location (maybe our logo )

As for intrigue, I want to lie to people so much I cant stand it, but it may not be in our best interest with the mini-maps. If all civs are trading around their maps, they may discover glaring discrepancies between our location and someone elses.

	19-12-2002 22:39									#5
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser just by looking at the shape of the 4000 B.C. mini-map, you can tell that we are surrounded by hills or mountains. Otherwise, more terrain would have been displayed. I think we should distill it down to a single dot or replace it completely with a symbol that represents our location (maybe our logo ) As for intrigue, I want to lie to people so much I cant stand it, but it may not be in our best interest with the mini-maps. If all civs are trading around their maps, they may discover glaring discrepancies between our location and someone elses.

That's not a bad idea either:


We obviously have to be careful about deception. We find out the rough placement of as many civs as possible (hemisphere, central, east, west), and place ourselves in a empty spot, as best as we can guess. However, we'll be found out rather quickly, so maybe this isn't the most appropriate venue for deception.

	19-12-2002 22:45									#6
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We have already discovered about 1/20 or 1/25 of the map, after 13 turns. The 7 civs have discovered together about 1/3 of the map, and accelerating. We will soon know if we are alone on our landmass or not. So, I am not sure that this exchange of minimaps is worth any trouble; I would rather offer our true minipap for sale, or even as a gift to selected civs.

	20-12-2002 01:17									#7
	Put an end to popups!

I say we trade the real, current mini map. Its too easy to get caught in a lie. The world is being discovered quick as mentioned, but the one who sees more of it fastest has an edge, so we should trade. As for icons, if we send them icons then we get icons back, so lets send the map as it is, so we get theirs as it is. we'll get as much info as they'll get.

	20-12-2002 01:57									#8
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No deceptions please. This is to easy to be found out in, and may be upsetting to some.

I suggest either the logo or our current map.

	20-12-2002 02:05									#9
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by GodKing No deceptions please. This is to easy to be found out in, and may be upsetting to some. I suggest either the logo or our current map.

quote: Originally posted by astrologix Be careful, If Legoland's goal is to be a builder civ, they will focus on a strong diplomacy game to avoid other civs to attack them. They will try to motivate the other civs to attack each other while they peacefully continue to build their empire and take advantage on tech research. I say : 1. no mpp before we better know our "true" location (not from minimaps, but from own explorers). 2. No alliance with other civs for the same reason. 3. No trade minimaps. The minimaps from other civs could be false. We don't need minimaps because they don't allow us to trade anything. From the beginning, we say ourselves that we intend to maintain us as much as possible as an enigmatic team. I think we should keep this line of diplomacy until we really meet other civs.

If there is a mini-map trade, I suggest that we ONLY give our logo to legoland

	20-12-2002 02:19									#10
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I don’t want to lie, but I don’t want to reveal all either. I would be for the logo, because the current minimap reveals what kind of territory we have (shading in the minimap).

Or can we edit the mini-map to just show the territory of Madrid in blue?

	20-12-2002 03:12									#11
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4000 reveals were abd only that, thus it is good. Logo is a bit of counfusing, and actual gives much away...
Is it really worth to lie about such a thing?
I don´t think so.
We would have our image burnt and thus future tricks would fail.
I approve senor Pikesfan´s hint on shading all blues....

	20-12-2002 04:58									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I'd just like to say that I mentioned the possibility for misinformation simply because it is an option, and my preference it to get all ideas/options/possibilities out for discussion when brainstorming. That said, I favour ruby_maser's excellent idea of the minimap with logo. Here's why:

1) It conveys our location.
2) It does not show the land we've explore, so it does not devalue our maps
3) It does not reveal the nature of our surrounding terrain (mountains, coastline)
4) It is harmless enough to post in the general forum or to trade to anyone, with worrying who they give it to subsequently.