20-12-2002 01:35									#1
	Machiavelly Institute: Tell England to Move Out Increase Your PM Length

IMHO we should contact Elizabeth, queen of the British, and tell her to get her troops to move their ass out of our border with Germany near City of Abandonment.
Reasons why we need to do this:

• England's troops may be helping us but they're also blocking the way to Germany for our troops. We can't step where there are English troops, so it's either them or us. Let's choose us.
  
• The removal of English troops from the railroad tile north of City of Abandonment will enable the proper execution of the explorers maneuver. We want to disconnect Berlin this turn so that Germany will not be able to switch production to cavalry units. As long as the railroad tile north of Abandonment is blocked by English troops, we cannot reach all the tiles around Berlin in time. If we want the great advantage of not allowing Germany to build any cavalry units, we need to tell Liz's troops to butt out.
  

	20-12-2002 02:00									#2
	Remove this text

If the option is "Leave or declare war", I don't think we should do that. I don't have much experence with MPPs, but in my experence if the AI has as many units inside my territory as Liz currently does, they will always declare war.

Besides, it looks like Liz is really after Bismark and since we are in between, she'll just cross the border again.

I think a Right of Passenge with England would be in order just so her forces could CROSS our territory in a single turn WITHOUT stopping.

Perhaps some additional RR bypasses around our towns would be in order?

	20-12-2002 02:12									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn If the option is "Leave or declare war", I don't think we should do that. I don't have much experence with MPPs, but in my experence if the AI has as many units inside my territory as Liz currently does, they will always declare war.

They have no motivation to declare war. They'd probably declare war if they were planning to use those troops to attack us, or if we had bad relations. But here we have good relations, they have no reason to attack us, they are already in a war and they'd have to break two treaties (the peace treaty and the MPP) to declare war on us.
From my experience, the AI declares war ONLY if it was planning to attack you anyway (I can't really tell but I can guess, according to the movement path of the AI's troops in my games) or if you have bad relations.

quote: Besides, it looks like Liz is really after Bismark and since we are in between, she'll just cross the border again.

Probably, but that's be next turn. In the mean time, we cannot execute our wicked explorers maneuver now, and it's critical for the success of this operation that we execute it the same turn that we declare war, which is now.

quote: I think a Right of Passenge with England would be in order just so her forces could CROSS our territory in a single turn WITHOUT stopping.

But then we won't be able to safely leave our core cities ungarrisoned, like we do now. We'd have to allot a great deal of our attack force to boring watchmen jobs.

quote: Perhaps some additional RR bypasses around our towns would be in order?

Certainly. We can set up a bypass next turn, but that would be too late for this operation. If we want it to succeed, we need to clear the way now.

	20-12-2002 02:18									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Kick her out or kill her. Just make sure it is done correct for us to take out that german swine.

	20-12-2002 02:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Happy Birthday, Shiber!

I think I agree with Shiber on this one. We need the Explorer manuever this turn, and an ROP won't help. Both an ROP and kicking them out carry the risk of war, but booting their forces allows us the first reaction if the do declare.

Of course, there is a third option: do neither. How many luxuries does Germany have, anyway?

	20-12-2002 02:22									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That would be a human would play, yes.

But I think the AI logic code is much smipler:

If I have 0 or 1 military units inside other player's territory and asked to leave or declare war then agree to leave else declare war.

quote: Originally posted by Shiber They have no motivation to declare war. They'd probably declare war if they were planning to use those troops to attack us,

	20-12-2002 02:24									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Happy Birthday, Shiber!

Thanks!!
I'm holding a really big party on January 3rd. You're all invited of course, if you don't mind bothering yourself all the way to Israel.

	20-12-2002 02:25									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by joncnunn That would be a human would play, yes. But I think the AI logic code is much smipler: If I have 0 or 1 military units inside other player's territory and asked to leave or declare war then agree to leave else declare war.

Personally, I've never had any experience that supports this theory. Anyway, I doubt that the AI is this dumb (no offense to you of course).

	20-12-2002 02:28									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In my own games, every time I'd told the AI to leave or declare war when they had 1 military unit inside my territory they have left peacefully.

Every time I'm told the AI to leave or declare war when they have 2+ military units inside my territory they have declared war.

	20-12-2002 02:29									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Happy B-Day.

Appreciate the invite, but I think I will just stay here and enjoy the snow.....

GK

	20-12-2002 03:06									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

joncnunn is correct that asking them to leave is pointless because they'll just re-enter our territory. More broadly, pressing the issue is stupid ON OUR PART because we want England to be on our side for this war with Germany (and so we can continue making 100 LPT from them for that techsale).

As such, we may just have to alter the plan. OR we may just have to wait for England to vacate the tile and put some infantry on it so they can't block it again.

If this delays our attack by a turn or two, no big deal. Aggie, E_T, and I were talking about delaying the attack ANYWAYS for 1-2 turns so we can upgrade all of our units before attacking and using units we have now to easily take over Brundisium (and get the Romans' supply of incense).

This isn't such an enormous deal... we can adapt.

	20-12-2002 03:11									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

hi ,

we could block her troops of a bit if we wanted to , .....

happy B-day Shiber

have a nice day

	20-12-2002 03:39									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

ROP -- If England declares war on us, things could get messy.

	20-12-2002 03:51									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by realpolitic ROP -- If England declares war on us, things could get messy.

hi ,

, be carefull with that ROP , they might sneak attack on us , .... you never know with those funny people and their milkbaths , .......

have a nice day

	20-12-2002 05:05									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Superpowers have to learn to deal with their allies as meaningful contibutors to the Grand Alliance. If we were staging to assault Nuremburg, we would expect an RoP with Liz. Liz is staging to attack Stuttgart as her effort against the Axis of Evil. We are honor bound to give her the same leway. If there is no honor in war, there can be no glory.

	20-12-2002 05:48									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

With Liz's forces right next to Abandonment, If they move (and don't declare, which is highly unlikely with the MPP), they will auto move back within her boarders. So the way will be immeadately cleared and it will be a few turns before they will get in the way again.

As for a RoP, I'm against it. If we had at least 1 Defensive Unit per City, while we conducted the War, I would have no problem. But that's no the case and won't be for a while. As it is, I'm still asking for 5 Drafted Units (no more than that) from some of our Cities.

E_T

	20-12-2002 05:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

No ROPs!

	20-12-2002 07:16									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

No RoP's.
Happy Birthday, Shiber... A little late...
(late in my time zone, at least)

	20-12-2002 12:27									#19
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos joncnunn is correct that asking them to leave is pointless because they'll just re-enter our territory.

It doesn't matter. We just need them out of our territory for this single turn so that we can conduct the explorers operation as planned. By the time we're back we'll have the railroad bypass in place.