20-12-2002 06:31									#1
	3350 Bc Support Apolyton

Moved the expeditions onward. TEG went west, Madrid went north, Magyar went South West.

We discovered a source of fish, as Senor PlagueRat predicted. We also discovered that we are on the eastern most edge of a continent, as our Madrid team is learning. Next turn we will begin to fully explore the bounds of El Valle de los Torros. TEG should be on alert for other civilizations.

Our slaves have moved south. They will begin next turn with a road on the hills NW of Madrid.

Also note, Madrid grows in 2 turns.

Settlers out in 5 turns.

We get Bronze Working in 8 turns.

3350 Spain

--Togas

	20-12-2002 08:47									#2
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I just hope the road to the Wheatfields gets built quickly. Maybe we can get more wheat over the hill and the price of the bread that the Winter family sells will go down.

María Pikesfan
who does the shopping for
The Esmeralda Pikesfan School of Etiquette

	20-12-2002 10:04									#3
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Perhaps we need to keep one of the warriors close enough to Madrid to protect it from another tribe's warrior wandering between 2 of ours and just happening to show up on our doorstep?

Just an idea.

	20-12-2002 11:33									#4
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What's slated to be built after the Settler? If possible, we need to have another Warrior, just to stay at home. Currently, it would take 6 turns for the SW Warrior to get home, 4 turns for the NE one and 8 turns for the NW one.

We need to start looking at the Mil Advisor screen every turn, to see if there are any reports of Barbarians.

E_T

	20-12-2002 11:42									#5
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quote: Originally posted by E_T What's slated to be built after the Settler? If possible, we need to have another Warrior, just to stay at home. Currently, it would take 6 turns for the SW Warrior to get home, 4 turns for the NE one and 8 turns for the NW one. We need to start looking at the Mil Advisor screen every turn, to see if there are any reports of Barbarians. E_T

I believe the intention is for the NE one (Madrid Expedition) to return home after a small loop to expose the area north of Madrid. Not sure how many turns that will be though. Togas came up with the idea, and Crousto leads the expedition - we should ask them what the plan is.

	20-12-2002 15:47									#6
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Madrid grows in 2 turns, then the settler will be completed in 2 turns, then a warrior will take 5 turns to be produced. Do we leave Madrid unprotected for so long (9 turns) or do we call back now the Madrid Expedition?

	20-12-2002 18:58									#7
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Madrid grows in 2 turns, then the settler will be completed in 2 turns, then a warrior will take 5 turns to be produced. Do we leave Madrid unprotected for so long (9 turns) or do we call back now the Madrid Expedition?

This is not so clear. The settler will pop out 1 turn after Madrid grows because we get a 2-shield bonus to the queue for growth.

Afterwards, a warrior could take 5 turns but only if we micromanage. The tile the computer chooses to continue to work will probably be the wheat bonus, and if so, our production will fall to 1 shield/turn for 4 turns. Then we get the 1 shield +2 shield bonus when we grow on turn 5 and back to 3/turn after that, so a warrior would take a minimum of 6 turns. It would be best to let the city get back to size 2 quickly if there is only a 1 turn difference between the finished products.

There is also the possibility that the next unit could be a spearman if we were willing to wait that long. It would take about 10 turns; right about the time Madrid hits size 3.

	20-12-2002 19:06									#8
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You are right, I agree that it would be best to let the city grow to size 2. But if we choose to build a spearman, it is just more necessary not to let the city without defence so long. So we should call back the Madrid Expedition.

	20-12-2002 19:26									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT You are right, I agree that it would be best to let the city grow to size 2. But if we choose to build a spearman, it is just more necessary not to let the city without defence so long. So we should call back the Madrid Expedition.

well, we could try for a spearman at 10 turns (I think) after our first settlers. If a threat presents itself, micromanage the city to 3/shields per turn and switch the queue to spit out a warrior quickly.

Its a risk, but we need to lay it on the line to get up and running. Another question is what is gonna happen with the settlers when they are built? They will not have an escort, but we still need to get city #2 up and running.

	20-12-2002 19:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser Another question is what is gonna happen with the settlers when they are built? They will not have an escort, but we still need to get city #2 up and running.

This is another good reason to have the Madrid Expedition recalled right now. Then build warrior/spearman, worker, spearman, settler.

	20-12-2002 20:43									#11
	ooc: micromanagement Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Finish the setter and work on the Warrior. Let the Pop Grow, but you might be able to get that extra turn by switching to the higher production tile after only a couple of turns with the wheat. Without the game in front of me, I can't say for sure.

Micromanaging: THere have often been times that I have been faced with a complex build situation that appeared to yeild 2 solutions. Get the Item a bit quicker or have faster growth but the item takes longet to build. Often times, through micromanagement, there is a third solution that will present it's self and sometimes there isn't. THe variables are way different but lets try this. Dusting off my trusty WorkForce Grid....



Case #1 (Grows in 4 turns, builds in 6) - WF Combo #A for turn 0 (WF#A @ T0), WF#A @ T1, WF#A @ T2, WF#A @ T3, (grows, WF combo B) - WF#B @ T4, WF#B @ T5, Item built.on T6.

Case #2 (Builds in 5 turns, grows in 6 ) - WF#C @ T0, WF#C @ T1, WF#C @ T2, WF#C @ T3, WF#C @ T4, Item built on turn 5, city grows next turn.

Sometimes there is a solution that has the city grow not quite as fast, but you can still minimize the build time, using the above combos

Case #3 (grows in 5 turns, builds in 5) - WF#A @ T0, WF#A @ T1, WF#A @ T2, WF#C @ T3, WF#C @ T4, Item built & the City Grows on turn 5.

How you go and Micromanage your build also depends on several factors:
1) what you plan to built next and not only next but what ever right after that. I.E., the next two items.

2) how fast you want the city to grow and if you have a granery present. See partly #4 on this one...

3) what your plans for the city will be, not just for this build, but further down the road, i.e. Mil Units, worker/settler farm, etc.

4) if you plan to do any pop rushing.

5) timeing of PW infrastucture Improvements during a build, that will effect the food production or build times (or even trade output).

6) changing build to something else.

and a few other things, too. Micromanaging can be a tedious job, but if you are trying to squeeze a turn or 2 out of your builds now, you can be ahead of the game 20 to 30 turns down the road. Trust me, I know.

Now, it comes dow to do we want to do that? Do we want to deal with the gawd off full detail and headache of Micromanaging the Cities?

First things, your not sitting at the computer playing the game like normally in the past (or even in the SPDG), this is a situation where you have days between turns to mess with the details of Micromanagement. Nor is it like the SPDG, where you have to give the orders for 5 or more turns and have to figure all of this stuff out several days ahead of time. And then pick up where it was left off after the turnchat is done.

Playing this in the PBEM fashion leaves a more relaxed atmosphere to take the time to do any micromanaging that is needed.

Anyway, I say that we need to have a 2 deep Queue (and yes, they can be changed), but try to keep whatever the current build is that is being built, the same but still be flexable about it.

And we should build the warrior next and keep up the exporation. We just need to keep aware of the Barbarian possibility. Have the new Warrior be 1/2 between the 2 cities until we have built more defenses.

E_T

	20-12-2002 21:03									#12
	Re: ooc: micromanagement Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by E_T Case #1 (Grows in 4 turns, builds in 6) - WF Combo #A for turn 0 (WF#A @ T0), WF#A @ T1, WF#A @ T2, WF#A @ T3, (grows, WF combo B) - WF#B @ T4, WF#B @ T5, Item built.on T6. Case #2 (Builds in 5 turns, grows in 6 ) - WF#C @ T0, WF#C @ T1, WF#C @ T2, WF#C @ T3, WF#C @ T4, Item built on turn 5, city grows next turn. Sometimes there is a solution that has the city grow not quite as fast, but you can still minimize the build time, using the above combos Case #3 (grows in 5 turns, builds in 5) - WF#A @ T0, WF#A @ T1, WF#A @ T2, WF#C @ T3, WF#C @ T4, Item built & the City Grows on turn 5.

I am for micromanaging (and I am even for limited pop-rushing and/or short-rushing) even if I don't have a clue what you mean by the above.

Whose job does this become, though? The Governor's? And could there be some sort of team oversight of the decisions made?

	20-12-2002 22:20									#13
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The Governor makes such decisions for the city, however, Roberto Ninot has become old and senile and Decedro Togas is currently trying to determine who should replace the old man ... but without being too disrespectful about it.

Roberto Ninot is, perhaps, the oldest living Spaniard.

Once the settler is built, a defensive unit will be built in Madrid. As for if we should return the Madrid group to Madrid, I'd like to see what the view is from those mountains to the north-west prior to returning them ... if we decide to return them.

--Togas

	20-12-2002 23:17									#14
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We are wondering how to defend ourselves - wonder also about what we will do if we encounter another civ with our warriors. What will we do if we encounter an undefended settler? I say we take it, no matter whos it is. Sure, it is war at an early stage - but it will hurt them so much at this level, and we get two new slaves from it.....

Think about this. Think hard. What would you do? Spend turn 1 trading, then once complete, grab two new slaves and effectively tripple our work force while crippling their production for the next 50 turns. Then we sick lux invictica or GOW on the unlucky SOB for a tech once we have a second contact.....

Oh, the machivalian institute would be proud of this.....

	21-12-2002 00:37									#15
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I prefer to just build defensive unit next after the settler. Actually, though we would have cue a warrior first, I say we drag that out to coincide with the discovery of brinze working and make the warrior a spearman.

Based on what we have thus far, I think we can wait the ten turns.

	21-12-2002 01:19									#16
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Roberto Ninot is the second oldest spaniard. The first is the High priest Tacticus

	21-12-2002 02:50									#17
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd I prefer to just build defensive unit next after the settler. Actually, though we would have cue a warrior first, I say we drag that out to coincide with the discovery of brinze working and make the warrior a spearman. Based on what we have thus far, I think we can wait the ten turns.

I agree. Building a warrior will be a waste of energy since Bronze Working is so very close. We will have to defend the city with a spearman soon anyway.

I say beeline for the spearman, and if by some incredible set of circumstances our city is threatened this early on, go for a measily warrior.

And let one warrior, probably the Madrid Expedition, come escort our settler to the promised land.

	21-12-2002 04:21									#18
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Oh, but we will need to protect the New City also. Build 2 warriors for the price of one of these promaced Spearmen. That way, both cites are defended.

Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

	21-12-2002 09:48									#19
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E_T,

I've read your long post above and, largely because I was acting President when you were City Planner in the Civ3DG, I've seen the concepts you're talking about in practice and fully understand your intent and have examples of it in my head. I also agree with your argument about how painfully tedious micromanagement is much less painfull in this PBEM game because we have days in between individual turns rather than days between 5-turn bursts of activity. Ultimately, I definately agree with you that if we micromanage to this degree, the pennies saved here and there do add up rather nicely over long periods of time

As Governor of Madrid, I'll try to do this. I'm going to have to go sit down and plan out the next sequence for Madrid...

Thanks for the advice.

	21-12-2002 23:00									#20
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Well, I am for building a Spearman next, and so allow our troops up in the mountains to continue exploring. Then, however, I'd suggest we build a Temple to boost our culture up. Besides, we good Spanairds want to pray in a building, not around that exposed, ceiling-less pyre-altar. It spoils my concentration when giving up the daily sacrifice for the High Priest when it begins to rain, and it does that alot these days in this fertile area where we live. It's even worse when it snows. The torches go out, and the sacred wines et al freeze up. Simply miserable. The spirits need to have something much nicer to call home.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Assistant Priest to His Holiness

	21-12-2002 23:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by E_T Oh, but we will need to protect the New City also. Build 2 warriors for the price of one of these promaced Spearmen. That way, both cites are defended. Senor Iwana Eta Tamali

If we build a road between Madrid and Pamplona one of this spearmans conveniently placed inthe middle could protect both cities. It is very unlikely that both cities would be in danger at the same time.