23-04-2004 20:40									#181
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If thats what you consider rusty then the rest of us are so far gone that all the WD-40 on earth won't save us.

	23-04-2004 22:23									#182
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Welcome back Tanelorn Those Chinese mods are extremely nice!

	25-04-2004 05:07									#183
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Taking a break from WW1 ships for a while (don't worry Exile, I'll finish them in a couple of weeks or so )

Here's some ancient Greek and Macedonian units - I've used Nick Secunda's hypotheses on Macedonian and Greek uniforms as the source.

Attachment: fairline greek.gif
This has been downloaded 399 time(s).

	26-04-2004 01:34									#185
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Looking good!

	26-04-2004 12:04									#186
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Simply beautiful Fairline!

And your "ancient" units lead me to plan something for the near future, I'll PM you about it in a few weeks...

	26-04-2004 13:43									#187
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@fairline:

really, really GOOOOD JOB !!!

I'll back to some ancient (in every sense ) projects of mine...

BTW: ok hypaspistes... when will we see 'argiraspides'? (silvershields - a kind of maceonian guard, if I remember); It would be good (when You'll have time) to see a Spartan officer and a mercenary (V-IV century) too ... It's possible?
THANKS and have a nice time !

	26-04-2004 22:17									#188
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Thanks gents

@Cyrion: looking for ward to your PM

@Gaugliaudo: I know that in the later Seleucid army the 'Argyraspids' were armed as phalangites and a separate body from the hypaspists, but the sources I have for Alexander's army invariably associate them with the hypaspists (ie the Argyraspids and hypaspists were the same body of troops). Hence I drew the hypaspist with a silver shield.

IIRC I also read somewhere that they may instead have been the the agema of the phalanx who were commanded by Seleukos. Any info on this?

I'll have a go at the Spartan pics.

	26-04-2004 23:55									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Gagliaudo BTW: ok hypaspistes... when will we see 'argiraspides'? (silvershields - a kind of maceonian guard, if I remember); It would be good (when You'll have time) to see a Spartan officer and a mercenary (V-IV century) too ... It's possible?

Yes it is

OK, the Seleucid Argyraspid is by analogy with the illustration of the Chalkaspid in Sekunda's 'The Seleucid Army', while the Alexandrian Macedonian Argyrispid is based on the illustration of Coenus' elite phalangite in Sekunda's 'Army of Alexander the Great' with added silver shield. Sekunda associates a figure on the Alexander Sarcophagus with an Attic helmet as being part of the Greek Allied contingent of Alex's army, many of whom became mercenaries later - he could equally be a peltast, so I've included a pic of one. Finally, Spartan senior officers appear to have been dressed as their men, but with a transverse helmet crest.

	27-04-2004 04:28									#190
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Amazing! Any Achaemenid Persians to match against them perhaps? (!!!)

	27-04-2004 21:52									#191
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Wonderful, Fairline !!!

That's really like I wanted!
The traverse crest is a must!
Stefan Hartel made like this too, in his excellent "Son of Herakles" (about arcaic Sparta).
Thanks for explications.
About the AGEMA, it was the elite corp of CAVALRY, to break the enemy resistance in the clou of the battle.

Keep on, great job!!!

	27-04-2004 21:58									#192
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And, I was forgetting...

Standing ovation for your master-touch: the 'sarissa' taken by the TWO hands of the pezetairos...

Congratulations !!!
(Be clear, if I forgot another designer who made the same before, I apologize and I make my compliments to him, too... )

Bye you all guys!

	29-04-2004 01:18									#193
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quote: Originally posted by tanelorn Amazing! Any Achaemenid Persians to match against them perhaps? (!!!)

Thanks Tanelorn - and yes, I was working on them when I posted the Greeks

I'm on far shakier ground drawing Persians than Greeks. I've relied mainly on Secunda again as the source, and he sometimes makes unsupported claims about 'uniforms' worn by the Persians, based mainly on repetition of clothing colours on the Alexander mosaic. He also suggests that the flowing Achaemenid robes shown on carvings of Immortals at Persopolis were court dress only, and from the start of the 5th Century onwards Median dress (ie trousers and tunics) were worn in combat. I guess this is supported by contemporary Greek art, but maybe an expert can comment on this (Stefan Haertel? )

	29-04-2004 01:35									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Gagliaudo About the AGEMA, it was the elite corp of CAVALRY, to break the enemy resistance in the clou of the battle.

Thanks for the compliments Gagliaudo

BTW, I think 'Agema' (those who lead?) in the context of the Macedonian army referred to elite parts of both the (mounted) Companions (heteroi) and Foot Companions (Pezheteroi) and Hypaspists. In the case of the Heteroi, the Agema was the Basilike Ile (Royal squadron) which was lead by Alexander himself. Could be wrong here though!

	29-04-2004 03:05									#195
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Speechless- in awe!

Minor note on the swords. The hoplite used his short sword as a secondary weapon, often this was the leaf-shaped top heavy "Kopis"= cutter to hack through shields. It was not intented as a stabbing weapon though. It is similar to that you painted for the iberian warrior in "Hanibal", though the back side curves inward closer to the tip.
Alexanders cavalry used a curved blade, the "Xyston"= scraper.
Are you positive about the Alpha on the Athenian shields? Athens standard was (and is) the "glaux"= Owl, Minerva's symbol.

Last edited by tanelorn on 29-04-2004 at 03:54

	30-04-2004 00:25									#196
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Thanks again Tanelorn

quote: Originally posted by tanelorn Minor note on the swords. The hoplite used his short sword as a secondary weapon, often this was the leaf-shaped top heavy "Kopis"= cutter to hack through shields.

I've tried copying one shown in Connolly onto a couple of the hoplites; he suggests it was more popular in the 4th C. than eaarlier, so I've left hoplite short swords on the rest. Added a few more spears too.

quote: Alexanders cavalry used a curved blade, the "Xyston"= scraper.

I thought the Xyston was the cavalry equivalent of the Sarissa, ie a very long pike?

quote: Are you positive about the Alpha on the Athenian shields? Athens standard was (and is) the "glaux"= Owl, Minerva's symbol.

Not sure at all! Sekunda was the source again; he mentions lead tokens found in Athens dating from early Hellenistic times which show hoplite/phalangite armour. Apparently these were used as 'chitties' for armour issued by the state to expand the army to the poorer sections of society. Several show an Argive/Hoplon shield with an Alpha symbol, and he suggests they may have been used in late classical times as well, when Athens started issuing state armour.

As a compromise, I've made an attempt at the owl symbol as a unit shield.

	30-04-2004 00:34									#197
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The legend continues!

	30-04-2004 03:49									#198
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Again, unparalleled artistic perfection and detail. You are right about the xyston too, it was indeed the name for the 4m- 12ft cavalry sarissa (as opposed to the pezetairoi's 6m- 16ft and later successor 21ft sarissa), my bad. Question: is the Persian line infantry the "Cadaces" mock-hoplite troop fielded (and anihilated) at Issus? I've read they were trained as hoplites, or (supposedly are speculated to have been-) a hoplite-peltast hybrid that threw javelins first.

I also have a (modern) drawing of an early Hoplite in full battle gear from the museum at Olympia. He is fully encased in cast bronze plate armour, top to bottom, including the full length of his arms and legs, plus a guard for the abdomen. However, it is admitted that no single hoplite could have gone into battle that way, for practical reasons. It is rather a composite of parts found on the site. In massed hoplite formations it gave little advantage, its weight being a greater liability. I'll have it scanned and posted by tomorrow.
At least well into the archaic period, Greeks fought in personal combat in the tradition of the Homeric epics, the big bosses being transported into battle in such heavy armor by chariots (Cyrenaic hoplites kept doing this for different reasons). The last great battle that this happened was that of the Lelantian fields, when the Athenian citizen phalanx crushed the traditional force of Chalkis.
Such armor is similar in concept with the Mycenean "Dendra" (site of origin) armor, that again encased the warior in sheets of bronze, almost a milenia before...

Last edited by tanelorn on 30-04-2004 at 04:25

	02-05-2004 16:06									#199
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Thanks (again!) gents

T: I have pics of the dendrite panoply, and the ordinary Mycenean soldiers with 'figure-of-eight' cowhide shields, but very little on post-Mycenean/pre-750BC Greek proto-hoplites. This early heavy panoply sounds interesting. Any chance you could draw him?

	11-05-2004 03:17									#200
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I am looking for some African (Mali- or Songhai-esque) units. Any suggestions?

	11-05-2004 21:19									#201
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Got any source pics Leo?

	12-05-2004 01:50									#202
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I like the Lakedaimonian Shield

	12-05-2004 11:06									#203
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No, not really. All Google Images can find is sexy Timbuktu architecture.

Merchants
Tuareg with sword
Irrelevant Camel Rider
Irrelevant Camel Rider Statue

One of the merchants in a different pose holding the Tuareg's sword might work.

Eh. My filler images work fine anyways.

	23-05-2004 19:06									#204
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Here are improved units for John Ellis' scenario "Hellas". I have added others' graphics and/or re-touched and modified some existing ones:

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5932_UNITS.gif

Edit: uploaded corrected units file.

Last edited by Leonidas on 24-05-2004 at 02:31

	23-05-2004 21:24									#205
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Whoa, that's spooky! Just posted a set of graphics files for Hellas myself

	23-05-2004 21:44									#206
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Leonidas, you may want to post a gif as the jpeg is distorted...

	24-05-2004 02:17									#207
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Thanks for the heads up.

Weird.

The units file for "Hellas" has been corrected.

	24-05-2004 15:08									#208
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@Leonidas:
Good work !

@Fairline:
For you, see the other thread of yours

	28-05-2004 02:20									#209
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In honour of the Spartans

The Top Row:

The basic unit is by Erwan and the shield is from John Ellis' "Hellas" scenario.

I re-sized the units, re-coloured, and then modified them.

The Second and Third Rows:

These are AoE units that were converted to Civ2 by St Leo. I then modified, re-coloured, and grouped them.

Cheers!

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=5932_Leonidas_Hoplites.gif

Last edited by Leonidas on 28-05-2004 at 03:16

	28-05-2004 03:01									#210
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Very nice, Leo.