22-12-2002 13:23									#91
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Rufus, I remember when Al Campanis was fired for his statements. I guess he was a racist. There have been literally thousands of careers ruined because people made statements like that. I guess they were all racists.

On the other hand, all of McCarthy's victims were not Communists.

Thanks for clearing that up.

But you explanation begs the question. What evidence do you have that Byrd, Thurmond, McConnell and Bush Sr. are not racists?

Are you taking the position that Lott was an exception. A bad apple? Gee, those Republicans, if not a bunch of racists, must have been pretty stupid not to recognize that Lott was David Duke in disguise.

Give me a break. It was a witch hunt and nothing else. Your obligitory yearly kiss the brown ass exercise, a production of your friendly liberal politicians and brain dead media. Starring some spineless Republicans. Makes me sick.

I hope to live long enough to see the day that minorities realize how they have been exploited by white democrats.

[/rant]

	22-12-2002 18:17									#92
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Rufus, I remember when Al Campanis was fired for his statements. I guess he was a racist. There have been literally thousands of careers ruined because people made statements like that. I guess they were all racists.

Sure, I remember that to. And Jimmy the Greek. But "literally thousands?" C'mon! Beyond these 2 and Lott, I'd bet you can't name 7 more, which means you can't even get up to the number of the Hollywood Ten, let alone everyone persecuted after them by HUAC. And I'd certainly bet you can't find the equivalent of Philip Loeb, the successful TV actor who committed suicide after the blacklist made him unemployable. In fact, there's never been a Congressional investigation into racism in American life, unlike the HUAC Hollywood hearings and the Army-McCarthy hearings. You've got a looooong way to go here to make your analogy work.

quote: But you explanation begs the question. What evidence do you have that Byrd, Thurmond, McConnell and Bush Sr. are not racists?

You misread me; I said they were racists -- or, at the very least, their voting records are anti-civil rights (and Byrd's a former KKK member). That proves my point. How many ex-Communists do you think would have been allowed to remain in the Senate during the McCarthy era? Yet under your supposed "racial McCarthyism," the current Senate boasts an ex-KKK member. So how can you argue for an equivalence between the two historical moments? You can't.

quote: Are you taking the position that Lott was an exception. A bad apple? Gee, those Republicans, if not a bunch of racists, must have been pretty stupid not to recognize that Lott was David Duke in disguise.

Lott is neither one bad apple, nor typical of the party as a whole -- though he is typical of the Southern wing of the party. In fact, the strategy of turning the solid South from a Dem stronghold to a GOP one, starting with Nixon in'68, has turned on exploiting the, um, less noble aspects of white Southern feelings on race.

So Lott's not a one-off, and he is to some extent representative. But what he represents is not represented by Republicans as a whole.

quote: Give me a break. It was a witch hunt and nothing else. Your obligitory yearly kiss the brown ass exercise, a production of your friendly liberal politicians and brain dead media. Starring some spineless Republicans. Makes me sick. I hope to live long enough to see the day that minorities realize how they have been exploited by white democrats. [/rant]

The worst part of your "witch hunt" analogy is that he wasn't hunted. The Dems, being the spineless cowards that they are, made nothing of this issue. The media initially ignored it altogether. And if the GOP hadn't smelled blood on the water, and Bush hadn't seen the chance to replace Lott with someone more pliable, Trent would still be majority leader. So are you prepared to argue that it's the GOP that is conducting anti-racist witch hunts? Or is it just backwards day, and nobody told me?

One last thing: in order for the McCarthyism analogy to hold up, there would now have to be an organized rooting-out of racists in all walks of life, especially politics, the media, and universities. And I emphasize "rooting-out" -- not a once-every-five-years spanking of some dolt who forgot the mike was on. I'm sure we all eagerly await the evidence that this is, indeed, what's happening.

	22-12-2002 19:35									#93
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick On the other hand, all of McCarthy's victims were not Communists.

True. Many of them were completely innocent. Lott isn't.

	22-12-2002 19:38									#94
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Your obligitory yearly kiss the brown ass exercise, a production of your friendly liberal politicians and brain dead media. Starring some spineless Republicans. Makes me sick. I hope to live long enough to see the day that minorities realize how they have been exploited by white democrats. [/rant]

Statments like these make me take your claim of being a lifelong benefactor to minorities with a grain of salt.

	22-12-2002 22:19									#95
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quote: Actually you are quite wrong. It is not at all bizarre to say that you have to be a contemporary to understand a politician's public policy stances.

Okay, so let me get this straight. Are you're saying that, if you weren't alive at the time, that it 's not possible to be acquainted with the most general, obvious circumstances about someone's political life (e.g. Strom Thurmond ran on a platform of segregation, FDR was against facism, Marx felt the proletariat would overthrow the bourgeoisie)?

If that's what you're saying, that's a rather odd argument, don't you think? Do you really not know anything about the public life of any politician before your lifetime?

	22-12-2002 23:02									#96
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quote: You have to be a contemporary to understand or sympathize with a politician's public policy positions? So, I take it that you have absolutely no idea what James Madison's or Karl Marx's or Ronald Reagan's publicly stated opinions were? What a bizarre argument!

Do you really know Madison's arguments? I mean, he wrote some stuff down, more as propaganda pieces than anything else, but do you really?!

I'd think that working with someone in the Senate for over 20 years would influence your views of the man. When Lott served with Thurmond, Strom had already disavowed his prior beliefs. He had already been the first Senator to hire a black person on his staff. THAT was the Thurmond that Lott knew. The one against federal power, who was not a segregationalist now.

quote: initially; of the 12 major media outlets covering Thurmond's party, only one reported on Lott's remarks, and they only broadcast the report once -- at 4.30 am EST

Because it was much ado about nothing.

	22-12-2002 23:05									#97
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Imran, you're looking at Lott's comments outside a context of his contonued support of racism and racists throughout his career. This isn't an isolated incident, but one in a long line of comments and efforts carried out over the last 30 years opposing desegregation, civil rights, and the collective rememberence of those who fell in the struggle for equality. Lott may or not be a racist, but he's been pandering to racists for thirty years. His fall from grace is long overdue.

	22-12-2002 23:10									#98
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quote: Imran, you're looking at Lott's comments outside a context of his contonued support of racism and racists throughout his career.

No I'm not. If Thurmond can be forgiven and Byrd can be forgiven, sure as HELL Lott can be forgiven.

	22-12-2002 23:41									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So Frist owns $25 million in stock in a corporation that had to pay large penalties . What a non-story.

I dunno. When the family business--in which Sen. Frist has a mere $25 million invested--is caught not in one, not in two, but in three nationwide Medicare frauds and avoids trial by paying $1.7 billion in fines and penalties--3/4 of its annual income--I'd say there's a story.

	22-12-2002 23:59									#100
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Obviously the news networks don't think so.

I bet plenty of Texas pols had tons of money invested in Enron, but you don't see them having to answer for that.

Btw, $25 million investment isn't all that much. Especially when the company can afford $1.7 billion.

	23-12-2002 00:04									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui No I'm not. If Thurmond can be forgiven and Byrd can be forgiven, sure as HELL Lott can be forgiven.

I don't think anyone's ever forgiven Thurmond. It's just he's one of those things you have to put up with, that aren't going away until they die, like Jesse Helms. No point in raging against the tide and sky.

I don't know what's up with Byrd getting away with it though. Maybe he's made up for his sins.

	23-12-2002 00:11									#102
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Well I'm saying forgive them all, or don't forgive any of them.

And Thurmond has bascially been forgiven. Him being the first Senator to put a black on his staff was seen as a breakthrough or something.

Byrd: He's senority and respected in the Democratic Party, so they gave him a free pass.

	23-12-2002 00:14									#103
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Dude, Thurmond is often used as the proof that South Carolina is still a bastion of white supremacy. He ain't forgiven by anyone except conservatives.

	23-12-2002 02:44									#104
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Is Lott an Anti-Semite as well as a racist?

I wouldnt speculate on this if I hadnt seen this comment

(AP)
...
"There are some people in Washington who have been trying to nail me for a long time," Lott said. "When you're from Mississippi and you're a conservative and you're a Christian , there are a lot of people that don't like that.
...

Does Trent believe those nasty, wealthy Jews in the media are out to get him.

	23-12-2002 03:45									#105
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Lott is a Southern Baptist, so most people who consider themselves Christian, Lott would not consider a Christian.

	23-12-2002 03:49									#106
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what?

	23-12-2002 03:57									#107
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quote: Dude, Thurmond is often used as the proof that South Carolina is still a bastion of white supremacy.

Never heard that one before.

--

And Lott is refering to atheists, not Jews, jdd.

	23-12-2002 04:40									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Imran, you're looking at Lott's comments outside a context of his contonued support of racism and racists throughout his career. No I'm not. If Thurmond can be forgiven and Byrd can be forgiven, sure as HELL Lott can be forgiven.

Thurmond and Byrd have both asked to be forgiven for their past and have repudiated them. Lott has been playing the "I'm not a racist, wink, wink" game for years with his KKK constituents and now that he got caught, he was contrite because he knew he was in trouble.

Long overdue is the best way to describe it.

	23-12-2002 04:53									#109
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Imran, I don't think it's as simple as looking at only one issue that a person has taken a stand on, in every situation.

However, this issue over Lott's statement worshipping a racist or former racist like Thurmond, revolved around -- guess what -- Thurmond's past advocacy for segregation, which is the focus in this thread.

It's nice to see that Thurmond may have cried crocodile tears later, and presented himself as no longer a white supramacist. But on the other hand, maybe Thurmond has truly renounced his past racism. Who knows, either way.

But when Lott implied through his statement that during the 1940's, when Thurmond was still a racist, that our nation would have been better off under Thurmond, Lott's statement was uncalled for.

	23-12-2002 05:30									#110
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quote: However, this issue over Lott's statement worshipping a racist or former racist like Thurmond, revolved around -- guess what -- Thurmond's past advocacy for segregation, which is the focus in this thread.

Bullshit. That's the focus for you because you've already condemned him to be one. Lott knew Thurmond as a states' rights guy from working in the Senate and said the nation would be better off FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE. He didn't say that bastard Truman messed things up, because he was thinking of the years he spent with Thurmond in the senate.

quote: Thurmond and Byrd have both asked to be forgiven for their past and have repudiated them. Lott has been playing the "I'm not a racist, wink, wink" game for years with his KKK constituents and now that he got caught, he was contrite because he knew he was in trouble.

I can say the same thing with Byrd. You want to believe him was the 'wink, wink' because it benefits your political side to think so.

I still don't think there was anything wrong in what he said.

	23-12-2002 05:31									#111
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Count me as one of those who has always hated Lott for his complete lack of political intuition on any subject beyond the floor of the Senate. I only heard about his ties to racists much later, but they did not surprise me. I am very glad to see him go, and I think a sizable chunk of the Republican party feels the same way. Certainly the White House is very pleased at what they have wrought this week.

	23-12-2002 05:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Lott is a Southern Baptist, so most people who consider themselves Christian, Lott would not consider a Christian.

Huh? In that part of the country many Baptists and fundamentalists would be very likely to say that about Catholics and liberal protestants.

	23-12-2002 05:41									#113
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quote: In that part of the country many Baptists and fundamentalists would be very likely to say that about Catholics and liberal protestants.

Um... that's what he said. Most people that consider themselves Christian would NOT be under Lott's definition of the word.

	23-12-2002 06:24									#114
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ah, i see...

	23-12-2002 06:54									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bullshit. That's the focus for you because you've already condemned him to be one. Lott knew Thurmond as a states' rights guy from working in the Senate and said the nation would be better off FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE. He didn't say that bastard Truman messed things up, because he was thinking of the years he spent with Thurmond in the senate.

In my opinion, states' rights has mostly been a facade, so that racist politicians can deny the federal government the power to protect the rights of citizenship that all people are entitled to in United States.

Does this mean that the federal government is innocent of discrimination? No, but in regards to individual states using the states' rights argument, it has been nothing but a facade, in my opinion, in order to deny people equal citizenship rights within their state government.

During the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's for instance, many white supremacists were screaming about states' rights, and that the federal government has no business in their states. Gee, I wonder why they used this argument . . . . . ?

	23-12-2002 07:19									#116
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I can say the same thing with Byrd. You want to believe him was the 'wink, wink' because it benefits your political side to think so. I still don't think there was anything wrong in what he said.

The dance continues. I can see not thinking what Lott said was that bad, but even the people in the room gasped when Lott said it, and they were all Republicans.

And again, Byrd has renounced his past, forcibly, and has a legislative record repudiating it. And he's not the majority leader for the Dems.

I think what Lott said in and of itself wouldn't have been so bad--if it hadn't been Lott saying it. It was putting it in the context of his persistent racism that did him in.

	23-12-2002 09:47									#117
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bah, let this thread die, he's gone...