13-01-2003 23:40									#61
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Nah; we can keep the present thread title. 3rd Reich IS the best WWII game (by far), so there is no conflict between the two versions of the title.

	14-01-2003 00:31									#62
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Yeah I got the faint impression you liked it.

Say, have you played the other games people mentioned at the start, such as Close Combat and Combat Mission. I really like the latter.

	14-01-2003 02:13									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Yeah I got the faint impression you liked it.

quote: Say, have you played the other games people mentioned at the start, such as Close Combat and Combat Mission. I really like the latter.

Combat Mission, yes. Possibly the best tactical sim, ever. I happen to prefer Grand Strategy/Political, but as a game, CM deserves 5 Stars, definitely.

TOAW was also mentioned, I think the problem with TOAW is it has too much micro-management. Itīs interesting, but, unlike 3rd Reich, itīs not elegant. One reason why I like 3rd Reich so much is the 3-month-turns, and low unit density. Itīs not micro-management hell at all, but itīs not beer-and-pretzel, either. Rather, it compresses everything important into minimum space, like a zip file. 3rd Reich should be compulsive study for game designers.

Clash of Steel had some promise, but in the final analysis its weaknesses were greater than its strengths. For example, if you concentrated on Strategic Bombers and bombing the Oil Supply, you could totally immobilize the entire German Wehrmacht, including the Infantry. In contrast again, with 3rd Reich design a lot of thought went into keeping players from abusing the system.

There are two new games available: Strategic Command and HoI. I didnīt buy either, SC is really over-simplistic and has some issues, such as using Subs against Capital Ships instead of Merchants, which is simply wrong. My impression is that SC is Axis&Allies with worse graphics.

HoI is another story; I might get tempted, even though I think itīs not a good idea. Europa Universalis and WWII donīt mix. Also, there are probably a lot of paradox bugs , and Iīve heard Japan and Russia always go to war against each other. (Ahistorical events should be possible, but they shouldnīt happen all the time. As it is, itīs not possible to fight WWII without a major front in Siberia. ) All that said, Paradox Games are always interesting (even if sometimes in a weird way ), so I may yet buy HoI, despite my objections.

Ceterum censeo: As good, realistic WWII Grand Strategy games go, 3rd Reich is as yet the only contender.

	14-01-2003 03:25									#64
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All this talk about 3rd reich got me thinking. I'm remembering that once up on a time a good friend of my got a almost finished beta of a game called Avalanche on the Amiga. It's a boardgame for the italian campaign. Or to be more exact I think the boardgame was just about one battle in the campaign while the computer game had the whole thing. For some reason I think it never got to a full game. Too bad as it was pretty fun.

	15-01-2003 02:39									#65
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OK lets see if you think I've read the manuals yey. Third time around on easy, decisive allied victory. Italy and Germany fell in the same turn in winter 1943.

	15-01-2003 03:06									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin OK lets see if you think I've read the manuals yey. Third time around on easy, decisive allied victory. Italy and Germany fell in the same turn in winter 1943.

Great! Now when will someone create a Pbem version of this classic, so we can play it over the internet? Or a PC conversion of Advanced Third Reich, which is even better than its predecessor?

In other news: Curiosity got the better of me! Iīve ordered HoI and will give it a run, after Iīve finished my current game of 3R.

	15-01-2003 03:20									#67
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The Soviet Foreign Office is warning that a German attack on the motherland is to be expected within weeks. The warning is first dismissed as just another piece of British capitalist rumour mongering, but then the General Secretary decides to concentrate the Soviet forces in defensive positions behind the Dnieper, just in case. The Western districts are to be emptied of troops. If the Germans are really so reckless to attack the homeland of Socialism, they will strike thin air! You have to get up early, if you want to outsmart the General Secretary.

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	15-01-2003 05:51									#68
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Are these from the same series as operation market garden?
Sure looks the same

	15-01-2003 06:05									#69
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No, itīs not from a series, itīs a standalone game. Avalon Hill Third Reich PC, patched and improved (though one or two bugs are still in).
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Q...9017/index.html

	15-01-2003 06:08									#70
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it is from a board game by avalonhill

I have 1.3 first edition copies

I have thought about getting a 4th edition copy (I havbe heard it is much better)

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 09:30									#71
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downloaded

can't figure out how to insall right

Jon Miller

	15-01-2003 18:25									#72
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The only think I don't like about Rise and Fall is that it concentrates exclusively on the European war. In my dreams World in Flames finally gets released with the same quality of AI

HoI is not a historical WW II simulator if you play from the 1936 scenario, nor is it yet perfectly balanced. Play from 1939 and who-does-what will be far more true to life. That said, Japan and Russia do not always (or even regularly) fight. Dunno where that came from.

What I like about HoI is that it is more freeform. In Rise and Fall there are too many things that get done the same way at the same time in every game because they are the "right" thing to do.

	15-01-2003 18:51									#73
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After battle report:

Started out as usual. Germany taking Poland in an afternoon and all. The stupidos of Italy declared war also and as usual I beat the crap out of those 1-3's in Libya and got total control of Africa. That, besides a failed landing on Sicily was all that happend until 1943 on that front. When a angloamerican force took Sicily and also attacked the mainland with the result that the Italian govt collapsed in winter '43 as did the germans.

So came the attack against France. As it was going well in Africa I could focus all my efforts to this front. By depleting the french reserves in north africa (with the hope that my fleets could stop any axis attacks) I managed to stop the germans already at the border. First Denmark and the Holland fell by I managed to recapture Brussels through a well planned attack. Otherwise I worked on attrition trying to keep the Germans at bay and get a grip around Luxembourg that changed side almost every turn. At times the germans managed to reach the east banks of the Seine but never with sufficent force to strike against Paris. My control of africa as well as france and Belgium assured my of a high brp-production and the initiative.

Then came fall 1941. The soviet union could declare war against the axis and did so. Not that the soviets had much forces of quality. But in some ways quantity is a quality in itself. The germans had some crack infantry (3-3) in Poland but not enough to cover the entire front. Instead of picking a fight I used my 1-3's and the few tanks I had to blitz him, leaving his troops cut off and surrounded. The only thing that stopped me from attacking the all but undefended heartland of the reich at once was about half of the hungarian army on the west side of Wisla. I liberated Warsaw and pushed them aside to the german front. With that I turned to the minor axis. With 1942 the soviets got a bunch of new and good infantry witch would stop any possibilites from the germans to counterattack as those fresh troops soon joined the front on the east side of the Oder.

In Finland I raced with a number of armor units through the north and cut of all the finns. Helsingfors was within my grasp and not much stopped me. O.V. Kuusinen arrived from Moscow as their new leader.

In the south the brave inititive from the hungarians to stop my advance in the west lead to a gap between the hungarian units in their homeland and the rumanian defensive line. This I took full advantage off. While three armored units raced through the gap and against Bukarest three 3-3's landed on the coast while two airborne units joined the futher sout. The enitre rumanian army was trapped and in a heartbeat Rumania and then Bulgaria and Hungary was under the red flag. I could turn on the german heartland.

In the west the americans started to reinforce my lines futher but there was no good chance to go on the offensive until spring 1943. A italian force with a few german panzerunits had managed to get through my southern line and captured Marsielles. It took some time to push them away (reinforcements came at the front that was an advantage at first but soon became a problem as the stopped me from actually getting enough units to counterattack with). Then in 1943 the axis saw the imminent attack from the east and started to send back their forces. A gap came up in the ardennes.That was my chance. Amor raced trough and came on the germans from the back, cutting them off from supply. Soon all the germans managed to hold on to was the rocky regions in the south with a strong force but not much stopped the russian warmachine to take and hold Berlin. It was a piece of cake. The entire screen was filled with my units.

	15-01-2003 22:03									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin The entire screen was filled with my units.

Because you get a larger forcepool on easy.

[Sorry, can never resist a little oppportunity for sarcasm. ]

	15-01-2003 22:06									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I have 1.3 first edition copies I have thought about getting a 4th edition copy (I havbe heard it is much better) Jon Miller

It is, but get Advanced Third Reich instead. Itīs even STILL better.

	15-01-2003 22:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller downloaded can't figure out how to install right Jon Miller

Youīre not the only one. Installation IS tricky. But hereīs a link that solves it:
http://www.the-underdogs.org/tech/t...html#thirdreich

	15-01-2003 22:14									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold The only think I don't like about Rise and Fall is that it concentrates exclusively on the European war.

Advanced Third Reich has a Pacific Companion:
http://www.warplanner.com/whatisers.aspx

[You didnīt know about ERS? Shocking!! ]

	15-01-2003 22:21									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold In Rise and Fall there are too many things that get done the same way at the same time in every game because they are the "right" thing to do.

Yeah, but I like the fact that it doesnīt allow one to be really silly. This also has the side benefit of a better ai. And the things that get always done the same way occur only in the first 1-2 turns. After that, itīs pretty open. With the Axis in the campaign, you have at least 3 totally different Grand Strategies, and quite a number of variations on each of them. That is, if all does go according to plan. If not, and you get bad die rolls, possibilities are endless.

	16-01-2003 03:05									#79
	Bungled Barbarossa Get a bigger avatar today!

The dents made into the Soviet defences by the Fascists are so small that they are laughable. And now the Russian Winter is approaching. The criminal occupiers are in for a sound trashing!

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Last edited by Comrade Tribune on 16-01-2003 at 03:44

	17-01-2003 03:16									#80
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8th Army is starting Operation Crusader, the push towards Tripoli:

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	17-01-2003 03:21									#81
	Got spare money?

Soon another Italian garrison is bypassed, cut off from its supply line, and forced to surrender.

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	17-01-2003 18:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Advanced Third Reich has a Pacific Companion: http://www.warplanner.com/whatisers.aspx [You didnīt know about ERS? Shocking!! ]

My copy has sat in the cupboard untoughed for 16 years or more. Whatever advances they've made since I last knew a bunch of serious boardgamers have entirely passed me by

These days if we get 4 of us together for a weekend its usually to play as many 1-2 hour games as possible, not one big game. Unfortunately that means most of my games are collecting dust. If I'm lucky I might persuade them to play Civ or Age of Rennaissance, but not a long wargame.

	17-01-2003 19:12									#83
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CT,

Thanks for the walk-thru.

I'll be trying to get this to run on my XP machine this weekend.

	18-01-2003 00:09									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold These days if we get 4 of us together for a weekend its usually to play as many 1-2 hour games as possible, not one big game. Unfortunately that means most of my games are collecting dust. If I'm lucky I might persuade them to play Civ or Age of Rennaissance, but not a long wargame.

Heh; why do you think I am so happy there is finally a playable computer version of 3R?

I can get my friends to an afternoon of boardgames only once or twice a year; and even then itīll rather be something like Risk 2210 (itīs fun, though).
http://www.avalonhill.com/default.asp?x=welcome

We play that in the local coffeehouse; though the waiters think I am slightly unhinged when I arrive there with a box with hundreds of robot armies.

And of course my friends ally against me from go!, knowing this is the safest course.

	18-01-2003 00:12									#85
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quote: Originally posted by RPMisCOOL I'll be trying to get this to run on my XP machine this weekend.

Great! Glad you liked my AARs.

	18-01-2003 00:15									#86
	Before Remove this text

Russians prepare for their Winter Offensive...

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	18-01-2003 00:19									#87
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...and off they go, leaving behind hundreds of German tank wrecks and 3 encircled Rumanian armies.

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	18-01-2003 21:45									#88
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First Impression: "Oh NOOOOOO! I have died and gone to Micromanagement Hell!!!"

2nd Impressions follow.

	19-01-2003 23:39									#89
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2nd Impressions:

-Yes, itīs interesting.

-But itīs not quite as good as the EU series.

-The game is super-detailed (and very time-consuming!) in the Military/Tech sector.

-But itīs disappointing in the Diplomacy sector. Few Events, few things to do really. Donīt expect another EUII here.

-Graphics are ok, but nothing spectacular.

-Music is great.

-Manual seems ok at first glance, but is inaccurate. There are important options in the manual, that are not in the game (Trade Pacts!) Otoh, some things that ARE in the game are not explained in the manual.

-Intro is ok, but shortish, and again not QUITE as good as EUīs.

-Expect to be drawn in by the atmosphere.

-But also expect the game to be extremely time-consuming.

-As a Major Power, there is too much you HAVE to do.

-As a Minor Power, there is too little you CAN do.

-In the final analysis, this game is VERY much a question of personal taste. My verdict:

Somewhere between 5 to 9/10.

	20-01-2003 21:42									#90
	Got spare money?

CT,

I'm glad you were able to pin it down (5 to 9)???

Are you tryin to say that it might suck, but you're not sure yet?