21-12-2002 04:27									#1
	Legoland minimap! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Theirs:


Merged with ours:

	21-12-2002 04:31									#2
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Cool. Looks like a continent world. Crap, as they are on another continent. They also have at least two explorers out.

	21-12-2002 06:56									#3
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can you please post the file, so I can take a look or email it to me at jdjdjd@att.net

trhanks dejon

	21-12-2002 08:34									#4
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I actually dont mind the fact that they are a little more distant....

There is less of a chance they will have reason to break aliance with us.

As for wars... well, we must see what kind of land we have between us.

	21-12-2002 09:33									#5
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Actually, I really wish they were closer. Being able to stand back-to-back with an ally is a far stronger position. But if any particularly nasty civ is between us that might attack either civ, perhaps our locations on either side of such a civ will prove useful for the civ which is not attacked to then take advantage of the situation by attacking the offender.

	21-12-2002 19:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd can you please post the file, so I can take a look or email it to me at jdjdjd@att.net trhanks dejon

Right-click, Save Image as

	21-12-2002 23:03									#7
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Who do you think may be between legos and us?

	21-12-2002 23:05									#8
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I don't know. They don't look too far away. A galley may be able to reach them. We need to put in effect our deal before time runs out...not that it will for some millenia. I wish they were closer by, much closer. My heart bleeds when I think of the lack of squid sales we may be able to do with them at this distance.

However, I must say this: I don't think we should trade mini-maps with anyone else, though. I just don't trust the people we are trading with. Legoland, of course, I do trust. These Carthaginians are indebted to us. However, if we trade with someone else, that someone might trade the same maps in future to another party, which could be bad. Imagine, someone trading our maps to Vox Controli or the Glory of War. We must keep this in mind.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	22-12-2002 05:38									#9
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Our tech exchange deal with them will NEVER run out (it's a generalized agreement). The only part of the agreement which expires, if I recall correctly, is the one-sided non-agression treaty (they agree not to attack us), which expires in 1 A.D. Given their distance from us, that line in the treaty is already quite meaningess as it is.

The tech exhange agreement, however, should remain highly useful for some time to come (assuming we can reach them)...

	23-12-2002 01:51									#10
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This is very good news, then.

	23-12-2002 07:48									#11
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Here's a piece of good news... because Glory of War is IN BETWEEN us and Legoland, a defensive alliance between us and Legoland aimed at Glory of War (terms are that if either us are attacked by Glory of War, the other promises to attack Glory of War in response) would be quite workable. It's not only sensible, given our situation and how much we need to containt hte Glory of War threat, but it's also in the concerete power interests of the nation that is not attacked at the time of attack, as well as the nation that is attacked. THE REASON: the nation that is not attacked has the benefit of being able to attack Glory of War from behind while the attention of their military is elsewhere.

Such an agreement, especially given the placement of GoW between us, would be extremely valuable for both sides.

HOWEVER, we should only let GoW know of the existence of such an agreement if they ever ostensibly and explicitly threaten to invade us. Otherwise, we should let such an agreement remain secret so that we can still be "friends" of GoW.

	23-12-2002 20:08									#12
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Exactly, Senor Clemente. This is how we shall ultimately have to destroy the dark forces of the Chinese, for if we do not destroy them, they most assuredly will destroy us, and that wouldn't be a very nice thing for any of us, would it? I think, though, that we must attempt to place the Chinese into such a situation of tension and fear, with two aggressive parties on either side of them, that they know not what to do, or will have to split their forces, and weaken themselves tremendously.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	23-12-2002 21:01									#13
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Señor Clemente,
I agree that the location of GoW would make an alliance between us and Legoland against GoW quite useful, but I must point out one important factor. No matter how much force Legoland can apply from the coastlines (and it's reasonable to say that this force will not be as nearly as great as what is available to GoW, considering Legoland's desposition), in any war between Legoland-GoW-Us, the main brunt of GoW's attack will fall upon us. Keeping this in consideration, I'd advise against signing any explicit alliance with Legoland vs GoW at this time. Quite simply, Legoland's assistance would be valuable in any war between us and GoW, but if Legoland comes into conflict with GoW (which seems more likely to me, assuming we keep good relations with GoW through their expansion period) we would become mince for GoW's armies while Legoland took very little damage. Now, I do trust our allies the Legos, but I'd rather not leave the issue of if we are at war with GoW up to them. Quite simply, we stand to loose far more, and I believe we can diplomatically fend off GoW without having to resort to alliances. Finally, this clause would make it nearly impossible for us to sign other deals with GoW (as we'd be at constant risk of breaking the deals, even if GoW didn't attack us), and I feel we have many deals we can sign with them to our mutual benefit.

-- Señor ada del Mada
Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War

	23-12-2002 22:34									#14
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Senor Mada, with all due respect, we have seen that you nearly went native in the past, and we must remember that it is hard to resist doing so, but the Glory of War is first and foremost a bunch of warmongering barbarian savages who have explicitly stated that their tactics were to destroy all other civilizations and take over the world by that path. This is all that they plan to do. Their tactics will include pretending friendship. Frankly, I do not believe that they can be reasoned with, or that they can be won over by diplomatic relations at all. They seek means by which they can conquer the world, and we must not be gullible enough to forget that, for such is what has destroyed many nations in the distant past.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	23-12-2002 23:18									#15
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I have blown this up and compared it to our mini map and others.
As you can see their whole surroundings will have a green tint while ours a blue, so this makes interpretaion a bit of a pain and I can't vouch for any of it.

To their North West and North East they appear to have run into water. The purple blotch to the North East would seem to indicate a Mountain Range, which appears to be on the coast. To the direct North, they have only investigated a limited amount of map, and I can't confirm if it is also water or not, nut my guess is it it. They appear to have a larger amount of forest and jungle than us, but their capital appears to be in a grassland. Which would confirm the cow.

To the East appears to be more water. To the west forest or jungle. To the Sourth West and South they may have run into additional water or another mountain rainge, I think mountains. To the South East they appear to have some additional grassland that may lead to jungle or forest.

I think that their growth, though initially faster than ours, should slow and we should do better given we have three rivers and have a much more diverse terrain. Their core city seems to be the only grassland area on their map. They would do well defensively if they have mountain or water on three sides.

The weird shape they think the continent has may be that they think they are on a peninsula that juts out off of the continent. It is possible they are not on the same continent as us.

I do not see any indication that they have seen other cities from other civs. And the mini map would seem to indicate that they themselves have only the one city.

Of course, this is speculation and I would glad to hear other opinions.

Edited the major grammar mistakes.

Last edited by jdjdjd on 24-12-2002 at 00:16

	24-12-2002 03:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy Senor Mada, with all due respect, we have seen that you nearly went native in the past, and we must remember that it is hard to resist doing so, but the Glory of War is first and foremost a bunch of warmongering barbarian savages who have explicitly stated that their tactics were to destroy all other civilizations and take over the world by that path. This is all that they plan to do. Their tactics will include pretending friendship. Frankly, I do not believe that they can be reasoned with, or that they can be won over by diplomatic relations at all. They seek means by which they can conquer the world, and we must not be gullible enough to forget that, for such is what has destroyed many nations in the distant past. Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger Diplomat

I'm making various responses to this (amoung several other issues) in the Diplomacy thread, and will be sure to address these issues there (just to keep things in one place and make everyone's life easier ).

-- adaMada