22-12-2002 04:57									#1
	TBS Alternatives Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As I wait for MOO3 to come out, I've been flipping through some of my old games looking for TBS. All I have is MOO1/2 and MOM. I'd like to invest in some new games of this genre but I'm not aware of many titles. I've seen the Civ series and Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri tossed about in this forum; what are some other ones I should look for and which are classics I'd be a fool not to own?

	22-12-2002 05:24									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Buy Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri. It's pretty good.

	22-12-2002 06:19									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

SMAC has a lot of things going for it, especially for fans of MOO. It's a much better civ game than most give it credit for, even with the bugs; the factions have a lot of flavor to them to the point of playing 'within faction', the storyline is sufficiently cool in a sci-fi way, and it can be very addictive.

It's not a perfect fit, but I'd say it's likely the best out there.

	22-12-2002 07:22									#4
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How about Stars!, Pax Imperium2, Space Empies III or IV. These are similar to Moo games. Only SEIV is still for sale, maybe SEIII as well. Stars can be gotten and a key to gt it going , I understand. Pax may be hard to find and is real time, but plays like TBS. I still play all of these and Ascendancy. Even get in a game of Alien Legacy once in a while and Star Generals, sick huh.

	22-12-2002 07:28									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree totally: SMAC and its expansion (Alien Crossfire) are great. (BTW, which "bugs" are you, Kalbear, talking about?).

If you're into space exploration, you can enhance your experience by first reading The Martian Trilogy ("Red Mars", "Green Mars", "Blue Mars") by Kim Stanley Robinson. It was one of the sources of inspiration for the authors, and a great series of books.

	22-12-2002 07:42									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I highly recommend SMAC & SMACX (The expansion). Alpha Centauri is a really, really good game. Like someone else said, the story is good (you can turn it off when youre tired of it too), the factions have real depth, diplomacy is good.. all around good game. Don`t know what else to say.

Another game I recommend is Call to Power 2. Alot of people don`t like this game, but it is pretty good after you put some mods on it - all available here at Apolyton.

Imperium Galactica 2 is a nice game. I like it, some people don`t because of it's lack of depth. After you beat it once or twice there is no replay value.

In regards to SE3, you can download the demo then have it cracked. I didn`t think it was worth paying for. Too tedius. I hear the same about SE4.

You could try Civ 2 ToT (Test of Time). It is an o.k. game I guess. Doesn`t have build queues though. I couldn`t stand that.

As for Civ 3 - I`ve only heard bad things about it. I considered buying it when it came out but I`m glad I didn`t.

Finally, consider a game called Stronghold. It isn`t TBS, but it is a true medival strategy game. If you`ve ever wanted to play a really, really good castle building game this is it. There are two campaigns (Military and Economy) and a free build mode.

So, I say get SMAC. The others are kind of iffy. If you`ve already got SMAC I`d go CTP2 if you want a civ type game or Imperium Galactica 2 if you want a space game.

Last edited by RolandtheMad on 22-12-2002 at 07:50

	22-12-2002 09:18									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I've been playing Medieval Total War a lot lately.

The diplomatic options are a bit weaker than Civ 3, but that really doesn't deter from the entertainment. THere's loads of options, and 3d battles with 3200 troops to a side can be pretty sweet. Especially if you have reserves extending beyond that.

I've had some battles where bodies carpeted the field as far as the eye could see. Quite fun, and units actually win battles they should win. The patch fixed just about every problem I had with the game, and it plays great on my system.

Very fun game.

	22-12-2002 13:21									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo The diplomatic options are a bit weaker than Civ 3, but that really doesn't deter from the entertainment.

My diplomacy has always been my sword anyway.

This is quite a shopping list so far...

	22-12-2002 22:03									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Which bugs was I talking about? Well, there are still crash bugs now and then. There's the infinite missile bug, which was very lame at the time. There were some odd pathing issues that caused extraordinarily long turns, especially once a person gained mag tunnels.

Things like that, basically.

	22-12-2002 23:38									#10
	Got spare money?

quote: Pax Imperium2

I refer to this game as PAFF! imperium. Cause while you are playing the game goes PAFF! and you are back to the desktop.

	23-12-2002 00:07									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Hum, I played it on Window 95/98/SE/ME and now XP and never had any crashes on many different pc's? From unpatched up the next to the last one. I think the last one I did not use, I forget if it was 1.06 or .07. 1.03 was fine.

	24-12-2002 14:29									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

I played the demo for pax2, had a whole bunch of problems with it. never bought the retail. was it any good?

	24-12-2002 22:29									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I like it, but it has lots of micromanagement. If you like having tons of tech to research, you may like it.
The worse part to me is the spy aspects. You can steal a whole planet.

	25-12-2002 03:45									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I wonder how the thief fits that in his pocket.

	26-12-2002 00:40									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It is crazy. I have had planets revolt and join me that I had not known about before then.

	26-12-2002 02:13									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The planet-stealing stuff utterly ruins what would otherwise be a solid contender in the 4x space genre. They got so much right - combined arms are a necessity, planetary defenses are worth something, research is split into theory and practice, with interesting trade-offs to be had every now and then, starlanes give raise to rally interesting "terrain" strategies... and then it's all for nothing, because the end-game is an ever-flipping game of planetary allegiance.

Disgusting.

	26-12-2002 11:48									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have to say that SMAC / X is a must see game. It's really interesting from a player standpoint, and all around a high quality effort. You can get SMAC for less than 10$ U.S. mail order, while the (very good) expansion SMACX is harder to find.

	27-12-2002 01:40									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by RolandtheMad I highly recommend SMAC & SMACX (The expansion). Alpha Centauri is a really, really good game. Like someone else said, the story is good (you can turn it off when youre tired of it too), the factions have real depth, diplomacy is good.. all around good game. Don`t know what else to say.

SMAC? Dull and boring. Some like it and indeed it did have very good diplomacy model, but the AI was horrible and all you had to do was plant forests everywhere to win (IMHO, but I only played it to conclusion a handful of times, too much red/green.)

quote: Another game I recommend is Call to Power 2. Alot of people don`t like this game, but it is pretty good after you put some mods on it - all available here at Apolyton.

As with SMAC the AI in this game is horrible, only good if you mod it heavily with user created stuff (which is sad to have to do!)

quote: You could try Civ 2 ToT (Test of Time). It is an o.k. game I guess. Doesn`t have build queues though. I couldn`t stand that.

Civ2 is decent but *very* dated. Civ 3 has a lot more and better features than this, although if you want multiplayer Civ3 is _not_ the way to go.

quote: As for Civ 3 - I`ve only heard bad things about it. I considered buying it when it came out but I`m glad I didn`t.

Civ3 is a good, deep strategy game. Most who complain (that's 95% of the people here at Apoly who played Civ2 and couldn't.wouldn't change their play style) haven't played it with the newest patch and/or refuse to adapt their play to the game, preferring the game to be SOSDD to fit with their methods (heh).

(BTW, why comment on a game at all if you never played it? Just don't recommend it but you don't need to bash it.)

quote: Finally, consider a game called Stronghold. It isn`t TBS, but it is a true medival strategy game. If you`ve ever wanted to play a really, really good castle building game this is it. There are two campaigns (Military and Economy) and a free build mode.

Sorry, Stronghold is NOT a castle building game!!! If you want a castle BUILDING game, get an old game called "Castles" where you have to actually plan the layout of the castle then defend the area while the castle is actually being built, unlike Stronghold, where as soon as you lay the walls out, *poof* they are 100% complete.

quote: So, I say get SMAC. The others are kind of iffy. If you`ve already got SMAC I`d go CTP2 if you want a civ type game or Imperium Galactica 2 if you want a space game.

Yeah, get SMAC if you want all red/green graphics and horrible AI. I'd try Civ3 with the newest patch, but then again this is only mu opinion.

	27-12-2002 02:09									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Blah..! Why do you so loathe SMAC? Maybe it is because you 'refuse to adapt your play to the game'. I found it to be fun an challenging while trying to achieve the goals of my faction.. except for the Hive which was really easy to swarm the world on most difficulties. If you really don`t like the graphics there is an alternate art set with yellow fungus I think.

You should try to not build forests and instead build fungus and go for a transcendant win as the Gaians or Planet Cult.

Or perhaps you could try to unite the various factions and follow the dream of peace and democracy under Brother Lal and the Peacekeepers.

Finally, yes, the AI is easy to beat on most difficulties if you`re strictly a war monger which is what I suspect you are. If you want really challenging AI that can stand up to human intellect I think you`d be hard pressed to find it unless it was a cheating AI with loads of advantages.

As to Civ 3, I only included that because I`ve heard so many bad things about it. Just a warning I suppose.

	27-12-2002 03:15									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ozymandous, I would tend to agree with your assesment, except to say SMAC was an excellent game.
The red/green was hard to take and the game was too easy ala civ2. Both were too easy, but were lot of fun. I did finally get burned out on SMAC and I would say Civ3 is much superior to Civ2. At the higer levels it can give you a decent game and I have PTW and all the patches.

	28-12-2002 05:04									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

STARS! - This game is the worst looking game Ive ever seen in my life. A ZX makes this look shite. Yet there is a simple but fantastic game laying hidden underneath. It reminds me of the first time I played civ.

Wha it really needs is a civ2/3 style upgrade in terms of depth (it has no diplomacy) and graphics (the planets look quite nice). And the combat could have a moo2 graphical style - keeping the "guts", of the combat model.

The scope is the biggest 4x game ever. And has the best weapons too. What othergame allows you to fling asteroids across deep space. You can commit interplanetary genocide without even getting out of bed (so to speak).

	28-12-2002 13:18									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They are sitting on the sequel now for a vey long time.

	28-12-2002 20:24									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Is that Reach for the Stars?

I heard they could not find a publisher for it. I think it would struggle to sell well unless it had a huge visual revamp (and I do mean huge). But they could look to sell it online to the "hardcore", even if it is a beta.

	29-12-2002 00:20									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

No I was talking about Stars! Supernova. The longer it tkes the less it will be worth. Graphics that were created 2 or 3 years ago have gotten stale.
BTW the further I read the strat guide for Moo3 the more I see Space Empire ideas in it.

	29-12-2002 05:10									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

How about Age of Mythology2? Slighty different gameplay to get used to, but if you like fantasy stuff, it's a cool game.

I like the combat.

	29-12-2002 05:19									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vee4473 How about Age of Mythology2? Slighty different gameplay to get used to, but if you like fantasy stuff, it's a cool game.

We is talking (real) strategy!

Never played Space Empires VMXA. Whats the low-down?

Im sure it was you taht recommended STARS! to me, so your opinion is held in high regard

	29-12-2002 05:27									#27
	Tired of ads?

well, AOE2 has as much strategy involved as any other TBS game..

Mastering the elements of a fantasy world is very difficult, but that could be difficult to anyone whio is used to units that are more "realistic"

after all, to someone who is used to civ, the differences of a cat warrior to a priest may not be understandable.

that's why i said "if you like fantasy"...

i still am getting to understand the units,


but the thread is about TBS games, so AOE2 is a good game to recommend if you like fantasy...need i say it again...if you like fantasy!!


And to say that there is no "real" strategy because it is a fantasy setting is pure...well....stupidity

	29-12-2002 05:28									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

i meant AOM2 where AOE2 is mentioned

	29-12-2002 05:43									#29
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Looked at the official website for supernova, and I have to say Im actually more impressed with the graphics and gameplay than I am with a lot of MOO3s.

It does not look as if it going to get a release though. The site has not been updated for a while.

	29-12-2002 05:46									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Isnt AOM a RTS?