22-12-2002 09:48									#1
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Theirs:


Merged with ours and Legoland:


A full diplomatic report from adaMada will be forthcoming.

	22-12-2002 11:11									#2
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Thanks Dejon .

I'll try to tidy this up and add stuff tomorrow, but here's the basic deal we've agreed to: (Will edit this tomorrow to make it prettier and fix any stupid mistakes -- too tired to think now )

* Warrior Code & Masonry <--> Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial
--- Deal will change if either group aquires tech
* Minimap <--> Minimap
--- Cannot be retraded
* 50 turn nonagression pact (starting upon contact)

This was performed under Togas' guidance. Their side has a strong interest in both groups sending warriors to meet half way. Considering our locations, I'd advise that we do it.

Items of note from the map:
* Using this information, we can dope out a lot of the shape of our continent.
* They have no culture as of now (I assume that's where the lack of shading comes from, anyway). Does this mean they're a bit behind us/didn't build a culture improvement as early as we did, or is the shading an option?
* GoW's on our continent, and Lego's on the other. We can probably sign deals with both (at least for the start of the game) without a major diplomatic incident developing.

** NOTE: 1:15 AM my time. I'll make this more detailed tomorrow -- just wanted to get something out so people knew the general details we'd agreed on **

-- adaMada
Togas' Ambassador to Glory of War

	22-12-2002 12:23									#3
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The reason that you can't see the cultural boundary is because they have the map set for Terrain and not territory.

But did they do that on purpose, to show what type or terrain is around their City? Did we make a "mistake" by giving the Territory part or did they make it.

E_T

	22-12-2002 19:59									#4
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Soour closest neighbours are Glory of War? I don't like it!

	22-12-2002 20:21									#5
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Civ : China Name of Civ : Glory of War Noun : Warmongers - Plural Adjective : Glorious Title of the leader : Glorious Name of the leader : Warmonger Colour : Zulu Black

Note their colour. Maybe it is just very hard to see where their border is.

	22-12-2002 20:41									#6
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Both E_T and Dejon are quite right -- my mistake . I'm working on enlarging the shot in Photoshop-Elements to see if their color's just blending in or if they've turned it off all-together. A rather regular-shaped area around their city does seem more brown then the surrounding terrain...

Anyway, assuming my image work doesn't work out, I'll remove that line above when I get around to doing a total update . Thanks for the feedback -- I was quite wrong .

-- adaMada

	23-12-2002 01:09									#7
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Frankly, I was hoping they'd be far away from us. But they're not, they're within our sphere of influence and we're going to have to deal with them.

As the map tends to have more water than land, we should expect that there will be someone closer to us than GoW, and someone closer to them than us.

Also note the water between GoW and Legoland.

GoW WILL go to war in the ancient age with someone. It's in their nature. That nation could be us, but I expect that it will be someone closer, someone whom is an early rival for choice city spots. We should get involved in that war on one side of the other.

We need to actively seek other mini-maps to begin to work out the potential geo-politics. We need to ancipate who will get into a conflict with who, and then pick the right nation to side with.

Our strength needs to be our diplomacy. To win diplomatically we MUST be active with everyone, friend or foe, and we must continue to gather as much information as possible from everyone.

But I still want our experts to analyze these maps, compare them to maps in our other civ games, and begin to try to estimate where the other nations might be and where Legoland and GoW will likely expand to.

--Togas

	23-12-2002 01:38									#8
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I totally agree with our Great Lord Togas. We need to know if there is someone between GoW and us as soon as posible. If there is someone then maybe we could take someone from theirs (like some disputed land or some money and techs) in exchange for the promiso of not opening a second front and letting them put all their effort in fighting GoW.

If there is noone between GoW and us... Well then I say, Go for the Great Wall!!!!

	23-12-2002 01:53									#9
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I think our explorers must continue on, now that we know dangerous enemies are so close. We need to find closer friends. T.E.G. must head in the direction of the GoW, so we can see how much buffer we have. Will we have enough time to settle the Valle de los Toros?

So while we frantically explore, we can't recall our Madrid Expedition. So then our next build will likely have to be a warrior or a spearman, then another settler. By that time Pamplona may be big enough to build barracks or spearmen of its own.

	23-12-2002 01:57									#10
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This I greatly feared. The Chinese are warmongers, and you know that they will fight when they can, and with whom they can. In this case, then, we, as those closest by (so it appears, I would be shocked if there were another civilization between us) are the ones who will feel the brunt of their warmongering in coming times.

Though they pretend friendship, in my heart a voice tells me not to trust them.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	23-12-2002 02:03									#11
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Well, it looks like we are on a continents world with Legoland on another continent I think Vox Controli might be north of us and east of GoW.... hopefully on the same continent. We should make every effort to find out and soon who else had the misfortune of being on the same continent with them so we may begin to allign ourselves for what is to come. (edit: a 50-turn non-aggression pact is not a long time to prepare).

The terrain around GoW is certainly not as hilly as ours. The gray region at the bottom of their section of map is the only indication of hills. We would be lucky if it turns out to be a natural barrier to growth in our direction. They appear to be exploring along that line as well; I would estimate only 5-7 turns until we could meet (assuming our warriors would beeline for one another).

	23-12-2002 02:09									#12
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How are we so sure we are on different continents? Isn't it possible we are on the same one or that we are on a Pangea map?

	23-12-2002 02:10									#13
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Hopefully, sir? Vox Controli is to be feared also, perhaps as much as the Warmongers. Look at the suspicions of Torquemada, and know this. They live in a dark land, and are all mad.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger

	23-12-2002 02:16									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Thrumble How are we so sure we are on different continents? Isn't it possible we are on the same one or that we are on a Pangea map?

No, we aren't sure, but it is a reasonable guess, given the distance between Legoland and ourselves, and that there appears to be a significant body of water west-north-west of them.

	23-12-2002 02:16									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Thrumble How are we so sure we are on different continents? Isn't it possible we are on the same one or that we are on a Pangea map?

yeah, we may be, but until we know for sure, we had better plan for the worst-case scenario.... that we are on continent with the warmongers and maybe one or two other teams with us. At any rate, the ocean between them and Legoland would suggest that any aggression they try is gonna be coming more towards us.

I think it is interesting that they are willing to trade us Warrior Code at all, but they may already be researching Ironworking for all we know.

	23-12-2002 02:23									#16
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I believe that logically they would go for Iron Working first, for they want to dominate the entire world.

	23-12-2002 02:31									#17
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I should amend that. I forgot what GoW starts with (Masonry and Warrior Code) they would still need to research Bronze Working prior to going after Iron Working.

	23-12-2002 02:33									#18
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Right. However, they will be getting Bronze Working at soon as we, and then I have no doubt that they will jump to Iron Working.

	23-12-2002 07:39									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Frankly, I was hoping they'd be far away from us. But they're not, they're within our sphere of influence and we're going to have to deal with them. As the map tends to have more water than land, we should expect that there will be someone closer to us than GoW, and someone closer to them than us. Also note the water between GoW and Legoland. GoW WILL go to war in the ancient age with someone. It's in their nature. That nation could be us, but I expect that it will be someone closer, someone whom is an early rival for choice city spots. We should get involved in that war on one side of the other. We need to actively seek other mini-maps to begin to work out the potential geo-politics. We need to ancipate who will get into a conflict with who, and then pick the right nation to side with. Our strength needs to be our diplomacy. To win diplomatically we MUST be active with everyone, friend or foe, and we must continue to gather as much information as possible from everyone. But I still want our experts to analyze these maps, compare them to maps in our other civ games, and begin to try to estimate where the other nations might be and where Legoland and GoW will likely expand to. --Togas

This is a very astute analysis of the situation.

I agree that if GoW goes to early war with anyone also on our continent, it is in our interests to enter the war on one side or the other (likely against whichever combatant we consider more dangerous in the long run).

As for Legoland... having GoW BETWEEN us and Legoland is actually pretty good. What it means is that signing a defensive alliance (MPP-equivalent) with Legoland directed at Glory of War could mean that if either of us is attacked by Glory of War, the other one could attack Glory of War from behind as we discussed before the game started. That said, it may be necessary for Legoland to build galleys to make that plan a reality.

	23-12-2002 20:04									#20
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That's quite right, Senor Clemente. These Chinese will, I believe, be starting up their war machine at the earliest opportunity...they do have a world to conquer, after all. It would make sense to start with the nearest bunch of chaps, especially as they are weak militarily (though I doubt that the Chinese are now, remember that they are both militaristic and industrious, and most undoubtedly have Bronze Working at the same time that we do, and I have no doubt that they will then commence to look for Iron Working also). This weak tribe that looks ripe for the picking is us, and I fear we have made a great mistake already in letting them know where we are. Of course, there is a loophole. In this, we know precisely where they are, and we have just as much of an advantage.

The Legoland alliance will be useful for a two-pronged attack. If for no other reason, it will surely keep them guarding their sea coasts with extra battalions and the like (perhaps they will even use mercenary dwarves or goblins...I pray to the spirits that they will not!). We must be on our guard, but we must create a situation in which they too are on their guard.

Hernan de History Guy Calamari the Younger
Diplomat

	24-12-2002 00:23									#21
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Wow, I didn' know we had this one too.

I'm guessing panagea right now, though it would be cool if we were not on the same continent. They have water to the East and probably North. They seem to have a lot of forest or jungle and mountains near their core city.

Looks like, right now we may be an easier target than Lego.
With any luck, they'll be another civ to our North or West that may be a buffer between us and GW.

	26-12-2002 23:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy I believe that logically they would go for Iron Working first, for they want to dominate the entire world.

I don't know, their Civ specific unit is the Rider so going for the Wheel and then Horseriding would allow them to build units which would upgrade to their UU. It would also allow them to move invasion forces more quickly.

	27-12-2002 02:36									#23
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jdjdjd,

GoW has contacted Neu Demogyptica, which is apparently between us and GoW... so pretty much a sure bet we're all on the same continent.

I'm guessing that Legoland is also on the same continent, though there's probably a body of water in between GoW and Legoland one would have to go around to go from one to the other.

As for the other teams, Vox Controli is somewhere to the north, Lux Invicta is likely close to Neu Demogyptica because we believe they are in contact (thus likely close to GoW as well... possibly in the north), and the location of Gathering Storm is entirely unknown...

My guess is that Lux Invica, Neu Demogyptica, and Glory of War are all close to one another, Vox Controli probably isn't far off somewhere in the north, we're to their south, Legoland is to their west, and GS is god only knows where. (probably off to the southwest of us, since that's the only "hole" if all the above is correct).

	27-12-2002 02:42									#24
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I gheesh, if where stuck between all of them, were are in deep dodo....

E_T

	27-12-2002 03:22									#25
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We're clearly separated from all of them by a dense and uninviting jungle to the north, and by the ocean to the east and south of us. We're not in the middle, we're on the outside looking in.

Also something to keep in mind: This map has 8 starting locations but only 7 teams. There will be a gap somewhere in the map. I'm hoping that the gap is to the west of us so that we can peacefully and safely move that direction ... as it is the only inviting direction for our nation to grow.

--Togas

	27-12-2002 04:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We're clearly separated from all of them by a dense and uninviting jungle to the north, and by the ocean to the east and south of us. We're not in the middle, we're on the outside looking in. Also something to keep in mind: This map has 8 starting locations but only 7 teams. There will be a gap somewhere in the map. I'm hoping that the gap is to the west of us so that we can peacefully and safely move that direction ... as it is the only inviting direction for our nation to grow. --Togas

My guess is that the gap to the west is likely where we will find the thusfar isolated Gathering Storm. If Gathering Storm is to be found elsewhere, however, Legoland and us have an ENORMOUS advantage if we each REX strongly toward that gap in controlled area.

	27-12-2002 04:52									#27
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Quite, Thrumble, but we must also remember that iron is a key ingredient in what makes the Rider powerful.