24-12-2002 08:00									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Cross-posted with you!

And I'm glad we agree.

I'm totally serious, too....IMO, THAT is the future of the model (or something similar to it). Charge LESS initially for the game, and have a nominal monthly fee associated.

Gives continuing cash for continued development, AND involves players actively in the post-sale dev. process.

That's win-win. That's the way to go.

It might not happen overnight, but when it starts happening, it'll happen everywhere, and the companies that resist will go broke doing it the way they're doing it now.

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 08:06									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It might not happen overnight, but when it starts happening, it'll happen everywhere, and the companies that resist will go broke doing it the way they're doing it now.

I think you are right. I hope that Firaxis can find partners other than Infog. Unfortunately for all of us, Infog. owns the rights to Civ.

	24-12-2002 08:08									#33
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

OTOH. There will always be the BestBuy, mass market buyers. If it were up to me, professional wrestling would be out of business now. It's not just up to me. Different strokes for different folks.

	24-12-2002 08:11									#34
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I wouldn't worry about that part too much....InfoGreed has demonstrated aptly that they're in the biz for the short-term fix (a common symptom of that very thing is cash flow problems....a thing that IG seems to be experiencing now). In the end, they'll either shape up (which means we can expect better products from them in the future), or go broke (in which case, their assets, including ownership of Civ, will pass to some other entity).

It'll get there.

-=Vel=-
(who has, by the way, just tipped his hand enough to reveal a small portion of his own long-term plans for Velocigames)

	24-12-2002 08:15									#35
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Release something that's more or less complete, charge a nominal (10-12 bucks a year) fee to allow users to log into a private website (hosted on a server farm anywhere in the world), to recieve the latest *upgrades* (not patches to bring the game to full functionality, but genuine *upgrades* to performance and game play), and have a place to meet others for MP.

This is an interesting idea and one I'd gladly subcribe to. I'd even pay more if upgrades (notice I said uprades) were more continuous and more significant (especially if they listened to their customers' desires and feedback).

	24-12-2002 08:21									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx (who has, by the way, just tipped his hand enough to reveal a small portion of his own long-term plans for Velocigames)

w00t.

Good luck. It would be good to rescue the old girl from the... present owners.

	24-12-2002 08:26									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And this particular CEO is glad to hear it!

To take that a bit further, and explore what else might lay along that road, allow me to think out loud a bit:

Might it in fact, be entirely possible to GIVE the initial product away, or charge such a rediculously low price for it that the game almost can't help but attract a significant following simply on the basis that you're not risking a lot in your initial outlay....then, if you find that you really LIKE the game, there's always the option to enroll in the "continuous development" program, which also comes with dedicated MP servers, and possibly even a massivily multi-playing arena?

This basic model has all sorts of juicy advantages....for the business, said company would have a nice even cash flow, and be particularly resistant to the quarterly sales balloon. For the users, they would be providing the *mechanism* (money) for the game's continued attention and development, and have a forum where their views and opinions on the future direction(s) of the game were not only listened to, but actively solicited! Subscribing players would, then....truly be a part of the ongoing LIFE of the game itself! That's the kind of thing that can keep a game's shelf-life going far, far longer than simply relying on fansites and the mod community, because at that point, the fan sites and the mod community are working WITH the company direct!

That's huge.

That's bigger than huge.

Now....some companies will, no doubt, attempt to ratchet up their monthly fees, charging separately for each title, and that's doable. If the game is particularly compelling, that may even be NECESSARY, simply to keep it from hogging up all the company's server resources and the like. But I predict that an outgrowth of the model will be game families....sets of games that you get continuous upgrades to for that same basic subscription fee. Again, thinking long term, it's the only way to go.

Once a game reaches maturity, you don't need a full-time, completely devoted STAFF of coders working on improvements, and so the staff will naturally turn to other projects.

Having a second, third, and possibly even fourth title all tied to that same basic subscription fee will not only add value to the company's "pay" site, but it will also draw in an ever-increasing number of players TO the site.

Again, the goal isn't to make a Q4 killing, but to get an ever-increasing number of actively involved players with a vested interest in the game.

I suspect you'll see a bit of both, actually. "Families" of product tied to the same site, and smash-hits being on dedicated server farms, and requiring a separate subscription.

We'll see....

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 08:34									#38
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

(Side-note to NYE) - Now now....In some ways, I can't help but be GLAD that the Civ franchise is in the hands of IG. It was the conflict surrounding the release of that game (and the subsequent release of PTW), that I owe the creation of Velocigames to. Had I been a satisfied customer, then this whole groovy experiment would never have come to be!

As to who will wind up with eventual control of the franchise....that's anybody's guess at this point, but we're approaching our one year anniversary, and we ain't going away....

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 10:27									#39
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I really hope you dont go that way, i hate games that ask for subscription for anything. I know they have to make money but other well made games make enough profit from good sales. If the game is good enough itll support its own future development. IMO subscription fees for games in any form just stink.

I certainly would never subscribe to a game and if people feel theyre being pushed out of the loop for not paying subscription theyll turn to the pirates eventually anyway.

Not particularly on topic, just my tuppence on the subject of subscription fees.

	24-12-2002 10:29									#40
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by ACooper God am I tired of people complaining about how the game don't work. GS had the wrong info and wrote a very negatively biased article. Case closed. I have yet to see (serious) lags in the online games I have played. Just be choosy about who you play with and make sure your computer is in order. Yes, PTW has warts. Yes, you have to get patches. The Firaxis team has done a good job with providing patches and assistance. Give it up you purvayors of negativity. Who you crappin'?

First to Vel...Much luck to you, it sounds like you have a plan and are sticking to it

to AC...I heard the other day that 22% of home based computers aren't connected to the internet(guess that means no patches)....Do they have the right to complain?? I know most of the problems have been with the MP and not with SP...but when people pay hard earned money for a product it should be complete and "mostly" bug-free.
As to being Mr. negativity...I'm not...I am very happy with PTW...I'm just giving a voice to those who have none.

	24-12-2002 10:38									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The problem is with MP. If you MP on the internet, then you can get patches. No?

I really can't see the logic that patching an MP game is unacceptable. I have a hard time seeing patching or updating anything to do with computers as unacceptable. It happens all the time, and with things more critical than the functioning of a game.

The bottom line is that consumers are driven partially by price. Well, when you push the producers too far... they will figure out how to use the internet to reduce development costs, in general.

	24-12-2002 10:45									#42
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by notyoueither The problem is with MP. If you MP on the internet, then you can get patches. No? I really can't see the logic that patching an MP game is unacceptable. I have a hard time seeing patching or updating anything to do with computers as unacceptable. It happens all the time, and with things more critical than the functioning of a game. The bottom line is that consumers are driven partially by price. Well, when you push the producers too far... they will figure out how to use the internet to reduce development costs, in general.

Ive seen posts here from people complaining about excruciating lag in LAN games out of the box. What about those people?

	24-12-2002 11:12									#43
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Ive seen posts here from people complaining about excruciating lag in LAN games out of the box. What about those people?

They should update thier computer and optimize their LAN. Simple.

	24-12-2002 11:17									#44
	Support Apolyton

NYE ...I see no problem with patching a MP game....IF...we had only bought a MP game. Both Civ3 and Ptw has bugs and playability issues straight out of the box...in MP as well as SP. As a consumer relations manager for Wally world...I have seen anywhere from 75 to 100 returns on games in the last year(not just IG games...the problem is more widespread) I hear the same thing over and over..."it doesn't work right". I take the time to explain about patches...where to find them etc.... some are happy with that...others demand a refund....cursing me out(like I made the game) saying how they shouldn't have to "fix it". I agree with them....if IG is not delivering what they promise out of the box, then they are short-changing the consumer...sure patches make the world go around...but not everyone has internet nor should we as consumers be trod upon by companies who say "we'll patch it later".
Once again...for the record..I am very pleased with Ptw(even if I did have to patch it)...but I ask...how many copies have already begun to collect dust...how many people will I not meet and enjoy their company in one of the MP rooms because of a company that wanted to "reduce development cost" ???

	24-12-2002 11:22									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by ACooper They should update thier computer and optimize their LAN. Simple.

Hmmm...so I shoud go out and spend a fortune updating my computer just so IG doesn't have to stand by their product and make it right....yeah...good idea.

	24-12-2002 12:32									#46
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Spock NYE ...I see no problem with patching a MP game....IF...we had only bought a MP game. Both Civ3 and Ptw has bugs and playability issues straight out of the box...in MP as well as SP. As a consumer relations manager for Wally world...I have seen anywhere from 75 to 100 returns on games in the last year(not just IG games...the problem is more widespread) I hear the same thing over and over..."it doesn't work right". I take the time to explain about patches...where to find them etc.... some are happy with that...others demand a refund....cursing me out(like I made the game) saying how they shouldn't have to "fix it". I agree with them....if IG is not delivering what they promise out of the box, then they are short-changing the consumer...sure patches make the world go around...but not everyone has internet nor should we as consumers be trod upon by companies who say "we'll patch it later". Once again...for the record..I am very pleased with Ptw(even if I did have to patch it)...but I ask...how many copies have already begun to collect dust...how many people will I not meet and enjoy their company in one of the MP rooms because of a company that wanted to "reduce development cost" ???

What you describe is endemic in the entire industry. Hardware and software. I work on the hardware side. I have countless things returned every week because 'they don't work' with the clients computer. Hey, I take it back and get them into something that will work.

It would be better if this did not happen so much, but part of the problem is that there are millions of possible combinations of hardware, os's and apps (probably billions or trillions, actually). Therefore you will see combinations that do not work. So I am used to it, as are many others.

Then again, there are releases that are particularly troublesome. PTW was like that. 1.01 could work, but too many people had too many problems making it work. 1.04 was better, but far from perfect still. 1.14 is starting to get there. The thing is not done yet though, I hope.

1.04 was out the day the boxes hit the shelves. 1.14 came out within 6 weeks. I wish it were not like this, as do a lot of others. However, denying the nature of the computer industry (hardware and software) is not going to make the next release better.

Maybe it will change, the way Vel has illustrated. I think though, that there will always be those boxes sold at Wally World and elsewhere. The hardcore fan base will not be enough to sustain the game industry for a long time yet, if ever.

	24-12-2002 13:46									#47
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The sad thing is I don't think Inforgrames is going to make it.

This really isn't good news. Who knows what good TBS and RPG's won't be made because of this.

I think the computer games industry is at a serious crossroads here. Too many people use hacked games. I think you will see serious hardcore TBS and RPG's go away for ever. They will concentrate instead on the average gamer who is less likely to use hacked games. Think of the Sims. I expect many more games like the Sims unfortunately. The rest will be kiddie games (FPS and such)

	24-12-2002 18:15									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think the solution that most manufacturers are considering is to go to subscription service arrangements for all games. Even companies that used to give MP away are moving that direction (Blizzard, Microsoft).

It is just a license to play, it can done as a pay-to-play service (although to be honest my bill for Civ3 and PTW would be horrendous).

	24-12-2002 18:24									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Morning guys! Just a quick note before heading off to work (abbreviated day, thankfully!).

Maq....I see your point and preference, but not the logic behind them. If I may:

I shelled out sixty bucks for Civ3's LE Tin.

Had I purchased PTW, that would have been another thirty bucks.

So...up front, ninty bucks down the tubes, whether I like the game....whether I hate the game. Doesn't matter.

I'm out my ninty bucks.

What I propose is this:

Release a game in good working order with no obvious bugs on release.

Give it away, or sell it on the cheap (10-15 bucks MAX).

Let people play it, AND fix any bugs they find in it via freely offered patches.

For people who are interested in seeing the game's continued development, however, offer a paid subscription service (buck a month). For that, they get access to the latest software upgrades (not patches, but genuine upgrades that alter/improve/tweak in-game functionality), AND have an active voice in shaping those upgrades. They also get access to the MP arena and the Massively Multiplaying version of the game.

So....if you don't like the game....you're out fifteen bucks tops.

If you do like the game, and you support its continued development, then if you stay with us for something like six years, you'll wind up paying close to the amount you would have had to shell out up front to play "the other way."

If you opt not to do that tho, you still get access to the patches that fix problems with the game proper, and the mod community, working independently of us, but entirely with our blessing (none of this IG-German translation legal mumbo jumbo) will be able to provide a means for extending and expanding even the core game (though obviously, not to the point that we can).

Seems like everybody wins.

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 18:30									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: When did it become standard for games to not be complete when you bought the box? How many patches must the reviewers wait for before it is considered to be an off the shelf product?

Perhaps it begun since it is so easy to get a patch through the internet?

	24-12-2002 18:50									#51
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Release a game in good working order with no obvious bugs on release. Give it away, or sell it on the cheap (10-15 bucks MAX).

That's fine if the game is popular.

However, the game will not take any less money to produce in the first place. Probably more money because you'd insist on it being an un-rushed stable release.

If the game isn't very good or for some other X-factor reason (e.g. poor marketing) doesn't attract the monthly subscribers then the development company will have no way of breaking even on their costs.

An inital purchase cost of $10-15 won't cover the expenses of the developers and publishers in making/marketing the game.

I agree that 50,000 users paying a tiny $1 a month after a $10 initial purchase is an attractive idea.
However, if your product isn't good enough to attract those 50,000 users in the first place you'll go out of business.

Well ... that's just gaming evolution, you might say: survival of the fittest.

Perhaps, but I predict that from this model the gaming industry would devolve (even more than it is today) into a handful of huge corporations putting out the big games because they are the only people who could afford to survive the big losses of a failed product.

I think your (our?) approach to the Candle'Bre game is sensible and has the potential to be very successful - if the game can live up to it. We'll see what people say when the Beta starts....

Our expenses for making the game have got to be less than 1% of a professional game ... (actually they are YOUR expenses because we haven't given you a cent ).
If Candle'Bre bombs then we can all walk away from it with few regrets and memories of some good times - and go back to our normal lives and jobs.
If a professional release under this model bombs then the company will go bust and dozens of people will be out of work. Risky .....

	24-12-2002 18:53									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That's huge. That's bigger than huge.

Big Huge?

	24-12-2002 19:09									#53
	Inflate your Upload Space

LOL....yep, big HUGE!

And you're right. Using the traditional develop-and-publish model, there's no way this model could work as outlined above.

The reason for it is that if the game publishing biz even remotely resembles the book publishing biz, then the publisher gets 70-80% of each sale, and the folks who MADE the thing walk away with what's left.

20% of 60 bucks is $12 per unit....which means that our model works IF we get rid of the big drain on the whole system, the publisher.

To do that, you've gotta forget brick and mortar stores, and HURL yourself into the 'net.

Broadband is here to stay, and there's no reason that we can't offer the product exclusively on the net for download....given the 'net's current population, that's reaching a whole lot of consumers, and the number grows daily.

This, coupled with "cellular manufacturing" scattered around the world (buy you and Skanky a CD burner, for example, and we have "production facilities" on three continents), in case people would rather have a CD burned and shipped.

Use guerilla marketing techniques to get the word out (Amazon, B&N, E-bay, FightCloud, Booksurge, Yahoo, Slashdot, Sourceforge, and several other key portals on the net), using the exact same techniques that we're currently using to get the word out about the books I've written, and we avoid the giant, flailing publisher-octopus (IG, with offices all over the globe has, no doubt, a HUGE overhead, the likes of which we will never see). Avoid the octopus, and the model becomes....amazing....

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 20:01									#54
	Tired of ads?

The biggest flaw I see is that you can't afford to pay any of your workers until you sell your first game. This means that your first game has to be a 'garage game' done in people spare time. This is not really bad, just that you will have a harder time finishing your game at all without at least one person who will stick with it thick or thin. Very few self published garage games have turned a big enough profit to be self sustaining yet. The only ones that I'm aware of in recent years (I'm not counting places like EA, because they lost their roots over a decade ago) are the niche market wargames.

	24-12-2002 20:15									#55
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

::nodding::

You are excactly....precisely right, Warpstorm!

The entire plan was born in the cradle of indie, volunteer-driven development, and in this case, the model very definitely shows where our roots are! What makes it so very different from other development endeavours is that we're NOT selling a concept (which is THE way it's done in the rest of the industry....pitch the concept before you start work on the actual project, and sell it by Q4).

That ain't us.

In our spare time, using what funds I can scrape together, we're creating an entirely new world.

When it's close-to-done, we'll have something to show and tell. A real, finished product....not just a concept.

It'll never really be "done" (at least not as I envision it), but when we're happy with it's state-of-completion, then we release it commercially, and see if enough people enjoy our creation enough to help us develop it further.

If so, the model's viability is proven, and everybody involved in the experiment wins.

If not, we made a really cool game that will please a lot of people, but it didn't attract enough of a following to prove the viability of the model.

Either way, it's been a tremendously satisfying experiment, and to that end, I wouldn't change a thing.

-=Vel=-

	24-12-2002 20:30									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

General PS: Those who have spent time around me tell me (sometimes NOT meaning it as a compliment, btw) that I am one of the MOST bull-headed, stubborn people they have ever met.

I like that.

I like that because it's that kind of attitude that sees projects through to completion.

And once I found myself involved in it....once I realized how much fun the whole process is, there's no way I'm letting the project die out.

Blessedly, this attitude is prevelent in everybody who's volunteered to work on the project with me. It really is *our* game. Not mine....not any one person's....it's gotten too big for that, and has recieved TLC from too many people to be considered the creature or creation of any one person.

My main role in it all is in setting the tone, and tying the pieces together so that the end result has a nice, consistent feel.

In a solid year's time (well, as of Jan 17th it'll be a year), we've lost four of our 25+ volunteers. Some are more active than others....some have more time than others, but everybody loves the process.

That's why we'll get there....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: 4 losses over the course of a year, and our ranks have swelled by (depending on how you count it) 6-8. Given the "normal" attrition losses and general lack of progress that Indie, volunteer projects see, I'd say that's just this side of amazing....

Last edited by Velociryx on 24-12-2002 at 23:57

	25-12-2002 07:07									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

why trash ptw? bet the guy who wrote that plays it everyday!

	25-12-2002 14:32									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by mazzz why trash ptw? bet the guy who wrote that plays it everyday!

Riiiiiiight.

Yeah, that's it. Every single person here loves PTW and plays it all day long - the people who complain are just dirty stinking liars!

Merry Christmas mazzz!

	25-12-2002 16:29									#59
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Gamespot can Kiss My Ass!

	25-12-2002 17:10									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Good point though. Why trash it just for the sake of trashing? I like TBS more than any other genre and for the moment Civ is what keeps new people coming to it. I hope for the sake of TBS alot more unsuspected n00bs buy Civ3 and PTW to keep the genre alive.

To Vel:

Well i didnt shell out anything for either Civ3 or PTW(havent got it) and this may sound arrogant but I dont think ive bought a "bad egg" for a long time. Largely due to scanning forums and reading far too many reviews. You could say the last mistake i made was CtP2, but that turned out very different after stumbling onto Apolyton... So i have a preference for the free community to develop a game and not subscribing customers.

Imagine if the CtP2 programmers and artists had stayed with this forum over the past 2 years, how much further it might be. But i certainly wouldnt have paid Activision(or any company) to access the forum or MP, no matter how much i continued to enjoy CtP2 or how cheap the initial release price was. (I imagine an independant modding community wouldve cropped up elsewhere anyway)

Turned out that CtP2 didnt cut it and the community faded away and turned their spamming towards Civ3. So now theres only maybe 20 max people working on CtP2 mods scenarios, little things. Had it been a massive hit, who knows.