24-12-2002 01:06									#1
	War weariness in a democracy Put an end to popups!

I don't understand exactly how war weariness works.

When you are in a democracy and declare war on another nation, how many turns before your citizens revolt?

If you declare war but don't actually have any troops in your enemy's territories, do you still have war weariness?

Do temples, cathedrals, "happiness" wonders lessen the war weariness effect?

Does overall total culture in my civilization have any effect on war weariness?

Thanks for the answers.

	24-12-2002 04:06									#2
	Re: War weariness in a democracy Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by mrmichaeln I don't understand exactly how war weariness works.

Don't feel bad, it's not exactly clear how it actually does work. There's lots of variables.

quote: When you are in a democracy and declare war on another nation, how many turns before your citizens revolt?

It depends. If the civ you declare war on is a traditional enemy, meaning you've had several run-ins in the past, then it might take awhile. Generally though, if you declare war it will happen quite quickly. There's also variables depending on how long it has been since you were at peace. Launching one war shortly after another, can bring on WW in a matter of a couple of turns.

quote: If you declare war but don't actually have any troops in your enemy's territories, do you still have war weariness?

War is war, it doesn't matter that much where your troops are. Although it will make it worse if your troops start taking heavy losses.

quote: Do temples, cathedrals, "happiness" wonders lessen the war weariness effect?

Not unless you set it up that way in the editor. The only builings that currently have any effect are Police Stations and Universal Sufferage. Though having happiness buildings will slow down it's effects for a little awhile. Eventually they'll make no difference, your civ will go into anarchy, and you'll have to select another government.

quote: Does overall total culture in my civilization have any effect on war weariness?

No. At least not to my knowledge. Like I said, there's a number of variables that not to many people are aware of.

	25-12-2002 01:09									#3
	Re: Re: War weariness in a democracy Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Willem It depends. If the civ you declare war on is a traditional enemy, meaning you've had several run-ins in the past, then it might take awhile. Generally though, if you declare war it will happen quite quickly. There's also variables depending on how long it has been since you were at peace. Launching one war shortly after another, can bring on WW in a matter of a couple of turns.

Here you have some examples when you're population will be mercyfull or not:

• When you get involved in a war by a MutualProtectionPact, you're people will show some mercy.
  
• When you are only fighting a defensive war, you're people will show some mercy.
  
• If YOU are the one who declared the war, you're people won't show any mercy.
  
• If you're the aggressive player in the war, you're people will show less mercy then when you should fight a defensive war.
  
• If it a traditional enemy, you're people hates that Civ and will show you some mercy.
  
• If you lose Resources and/or Luxuries in the first turns of the war, you're people will show less mercy.
  
• If you lose many units and territory and cities, you're people will show less mercy.
  
• If you a the 'great conqueror' in the war, you people will show you some mercy.
  
• And so on, and so on, and so on...
  

	25-12-2002 01:48									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I always find it's best to wrap up your war in 10 turns. sometims it seems like 15 though. I haven't actually timed it.

	25-12-2002 01:58									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Last time it was 12 turns in my game.

	25-12-2002 18:44									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Here you have some examples when you're population will be mercyfull or not:

How do you know? Some things are clear, but some things you are describing i am wondering how the Computer is measureing this.
f.e. That you are fighting a defensive war, or that you are the great conqueror. Is the Computer counting how much citys you take in how much turns or what?

	25-12-2002 18:48									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: I always find it's best to wrap up your war in 10 turns. sometims it seems like 15 though. I haven't actually timed it.

I think you can go up to 20 turns, but then maybe it is up to how you are doing in the war, like in the examples of CivilopediaCity.
Can be because in my wars under democracy i normally make war to conquer the enemy and normally it dont takes so long, but one time it was up to 20 turns and i didnt went into anarchy, but also this an be dependant how long you had peace before....

	25-12-2002 19:04									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Gwylim How do you know? Some things are clear, but some things you are describing i am wondering how the Computer is measureing this. f.e. That you are fighting a defensive war, or that you are the great conqueror. Is the Computer counting how much citys you take in how much turns or what?

To my knowledge, Firaxis has never made clear the variables for WW, nor how they work. So there's a lot of guess work and conjecture going on. Educated guesses in other words.

	25-12-2002 20:45									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have just completed a conquest of a Babylonian civ on another continent (Regent level) under democracy with no police stations and I hadn't completed Universal Suffrage. It took about 25-30 turns and I had no problem with WW. I declared war on them and invaded.

I managed this for three reasons I think. 1 My main cities had all the happiness improvements in place. 2 I had access to 6 luxuries as I had just traded an advanced tech to everyone except the Babs. 3 Most importantly I avoid having troops in enemy territory at the end of my turn. Basically move cavalry as close as possible to the target city but not into enemy territory and then rush the city. Your garrison riflemen can then move in by road. This way the computer never 'sees' my troops in enemy territory thus avoiding what appears to be a major factor in WW.

	26-12-2002 01:47									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

From my games I got the impression that it does not matter so much whether your troops are in enemy territory. Instead things go bad when enemy troops are in your territory.

	26-12-2002 03:32									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Nah, the main criterion is your own casualties. If you are able to fight your war without meaningful losses, WW takes much longer.

I find that if you declare war, and LET THE ENEMY STRIKE THE FIRST BLOW into your territory (trigger MPPs), this also helps a lot.

	27-12-2002 23:48									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Gwylim How do you know? Some things are clear, but some things you are describing i am wondering how the Computer is measureing this. f.e. That you are fighting a defensive war, or that you are the great conqueror. Is the Computer counting how much citys you take in how much turns or what?

Yes, I think there are several counters ticking while you are mongering war against another Civ.

	27-12-2002 23:58									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

It's sure that WarWeariness also is depending itself on the positions of your Units. If you are having a war in a twilight state, you won't get WW so fast. But if you are mongering a war with much battles and combats, WW will come faster.

Since we are talking about WarWeariness here, I'm having a question: do ForeignNationals have effect on WW. I'll explain to you why I'm asking this: last time I was in war with the English. After 12 Turns the WW was going to kick up a row: most of my cities were immediately in CivilDisorder. But every city with much ForeignNationals was not: in those cities was every ForeignNational Happy, but every citizen of my own, the Chinese ones, were Unhappy. So that's why I'm asking if maybe ForeignNationals don't bother that you're a warmonger under Democracy or Republic.

	28-12-2002 00:10									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Beware of anecdotal evidence with WW. I am confident that randomness is a component in the equation.

Also, note that Soren has stated that the accumulation of WW is not negated by Comm./Monarchy; only that their expression is suppressed.

	28-12-2002 03:32									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by CivilopediaCity It's sure that WarWeariness also is depending itself on the positions of your Units. If you are having a war in a twilight state, you won't get WW so fast. But if you are mongering a war with much battles and combats, WW will come faster. Since we are talking about WarWeariness here, I'm having a question: do ForeignNationals have effect on WW. I'll explain to you why I'm asking this: last time I was in war with the English. After 12 Turns the WW was going to kick up a row: most of my cities were immediately in CivilDisorder. But every city with much ForeignNationals was not: in those cities was every ForeignNational Happy, but every citizen of my own, the Chinese ones, were Unhappy. So that's why I'm asking if maybe ForeignNationals don't bother that you're a warmonger under Democracy or Republic.

Interesting. I'm guessing that the foreign nationals in your cities were traditional enemies of the civ you were at war with. I noticed in my last game, when the Carthaginians declared war again, many of my cities suddenly became happy, going into WLTKD.

	29-12-2002 18:09									#16
	WarWeariness, interesting question... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Willem Interesting. I'm guessing that the foreign nationals in your cities were traditional enemies of the civ you were at war with. I noticed in my last game, when the Carthaginians declared war again, many of my cities suddenly became happy, going into WLTKD.

Well, one sort ForeignNationals under my reign were the Americans and they stayed happy when I was at war with the Bismarck and Lincoln and the Germans were the best friends (MPP + RoP + of course PT, etc.), at least they existed both. I wiped them out both a long time ago...

In your case, you're people must have been hating the Carthaginians very much, and if so, you're cities will indeed go to the WLT...D if you declare war.