25-12-2002 00:25									#1
	Why is not useful to improve more tiles around Madrid Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Madrid tiles:

1 Wheat with irrigation and road (4 food 0 production 2 commerce)
1 Grassland with shield and river (2 food 1 production 1 commerce)
2 Grassland with river (2 food 0 production 1 commerce)
1 Desert (0 food 1 production 0 commerce)
7 hills (1 food 1 production 0 commerce)
2 hills with river (1 food 1 production 1 commerce)
1 forest (1 food 2 production 0 commerce)
2 forest with river (1 food 2 production 2 commerce)
1 forest with game and river (2 food 2 production 1 commerce)
1 plains with cow and road (2 food 2 production 1 commerce)
1 coast (1 food 0 production 2 commerce)

At Madrid we are already using the wheat and the cow. The third citizen is likely to go to the game, which has the highest combined production of food and production of the remaining tiles.
This tile could be roaded to obtain an extra commerce unit. And right now is the unic likely alternative I see.

The cow has not easy access to freshwater. If it had we could obtain an extra food from it. mining would not be useful because of the despotism penalization.

Forest and coast cannot be irrigated or mined, so no discussion about that.

Hills and grassland could be mined, but after the despotism penalty it would have the same effect than the game tile. At the moment I see very unlikely that Madrid will have 4 citizens at the near future, so no point in doing that.

About irrigating grassland, it would also be inproductive because of the despotism penalty.

So my plans are to continue roading the shielded grassland in direction to the placement of the new city of Pamplona. But as always I am opened to sugestions.

	25-12-2002 00:43									#2
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I do not see Madrid growing past 3 for quite some time. Madrid as excellent food production and should be used for giving birth to Spanish Settlers and workers. As we don't have any luxuries linked up, and have not built a temple, we need to keep our city sizes down to prevent disorder.

--Togas

	25-12-2002 03:11									#3
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Great analysis
But instead of building the road right now, it may be more interesting to build improvements near the 2nd city as soon as possible.

	25-12-2002 04:09									#4
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Our worker IS working on a road on the hill to the NW of Madrid. He will be done in 5 turns.

Should we cancel that action and move him next turn with the settler who will be coming out of Madrid?

--Togas

	25-12-2002 15:28									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Our worker IS working on a road on the hill to the NW of Madrid. He will be done in 5 turns. Should we cancel that action and move him next turn with the settler who will be coming out of Madrid? --Togas

Cancelling this action would be a waste of time. My answer is NO cancel.

	25-12-2002 18:52									#6
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[OOC]
From the Civilpedea: Any City production squate which produces more than two Food, Shields or Commerce in a despotic government instead produces one less.

So what this means is that the Wheat tile should be producing 5 food, but is one less from despotic,

But if you irrigate a non bonus grassland, you won't see the effect, yet. Roading & mining the hill will give you 2 shields, but the one Grassland with the shield could have been mined and roaded in less time and had two food instead of one.

The Road is good for now, and at the Game, but the worker needs to start heading to the cow valley to help with work there (at the new city)

[/ooc]

Just watching them work makes me tired...

Iwana Eta Tamali

	25-12-2002 18:56									#7
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Great!
I'm now convinced that we don't need to mine out the hills yet.
Just micromanage Madrid so that it will produce settlers and grow
at an optimal rate. Then we have a great plan of colonization which must be realized asap...

	26-12-2002 00:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Our worker IS working on a road on the hill to the NW of Madrid. He will be done in 5 turns. Should we cancel that action and move him next turn with the settler who will be coming out of Madrid? --Togas

I would prefer them to finish the road and then road also the shielded grassland, this way our two cities would be much closer. But roading also the mountains would be too expensive for us at that moment, so after the shielded grassland they should go directly to the new city and then irrigate the cattle.

Edit: typo corrected

	26-12-2002 01:03									#9
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[OOC] here is a link to the "Quick guide to irrigation versus mining" in the Stratagy Forum. A good source of info for us for the near future...

E_T
[/ooc]

	26-12-2002 05:33									#10
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We need to produce another worker. Perhaps Pamplona could produce one and then its worker could build the road with Madrid’s.

	26-12-2002 07:35									#11
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quote: Originally posted by pikesfan We need to produce another worker. Perhaps Pamplona could produce one and then its worker could build the road with Madrid’s.

Yes, please note that our workers work at HALF the speed of most all of the other teams' workers (since 5 out of 7 teams are industrious). We would need more workers to keep up with them in terms of tile improvements

	26-12-2002 08:05									#12
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I suggest that Pamplona build a Temple first, then a Worker, then possibly a Granary, then start alternating Settlers & Workers. For now, Madrid can be the Military Center & other Worker Center, while Pamplona can be the Settler & Worker Station.

I like to try to have a Worker force that is 1.5 to 2 times the number of Cities that I have.

E_T

	26-12-2002 17:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I suggest that Pamplona build a Temple first, then a Worker

I agree with this plan. A temple at Pamplona is even more urgent than a new worker. Whe need access to the second cattle to make this city really productive. Also, religious is one of our strong points, so we should take advantage of it. What I wonder now if it we should pop rush this temple or not.

	26-12-2002 19:24									#14
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I suggest that Pamplona build a Temple first, then a Worker

I hope that Madrid create another worker soon then, because we need a second one quicker than this queue would allow for.

	26-12-2002 20:00									#15
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I do not agree. Settlers first, if we can do it.
Hmm... Temples takes more time, someone do the math?

	26-12-2002 20:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by E_T I suggest that Pamplona build a Temple first, then a Worker, then possibly a Granary, then start alternating Settlers & Workers. For now, Madrid can be the Military Center & other Worker Center, while Pamplona can be the Settler & Worker Station. I like to try to have a Worker force that is 1.5 to 2 times the number of Cities that I have. E_T

My plan was to make Madrid a settler factory until the new city can take over with those duties. We need to MAD REX in the very initial stages... which means building spearmen and settlers, probably shirking on workers for at least a little at first.

That is unless we're going to argue that the nature of a multiplayer game makes it critical for us to build more improvements or military and less settlers this early. Personally, I think not, as the VERY early game is the perfect time to uber-REX rather than build workers and spearmen because we won't get another chance before the risk of war sets in.

	26-12-2002 22:03									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat I do not agree. Settlers first, if we can do it. Hmm... Temples takes more time, someone do the math?

Remember that we are religious. Temples cost half for us. Plus we really need the second cattle to convert Pamplona in a real settler factory, and this second cow will only be available for us through culture expansion.

Last but not least, we must take profit of our culture characteristics. This means being religious and building temples.

	26-12-2002 22:07									#18
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Señor Arnelos, your plan makes sense to me. Probably it is true that in multiplayer we must be more careful at the REX phase, but this only means that we must do REX when we can. There is no point in building two or threee cities when our oponents are going to have six or seven.

	26-12-2002 22:07									#19
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quote: Originally posted by oliverfa Remember that we are religious. Temples cost half for us. Plus we really need the second cattle to convert Pamplona in a real settler factory, and this second cow will only be available for us through culture expansion. Last but not least, we must take profit of our culture characteristics. This means being religious and building temples.

I agree with the temple for the same reasons, but notice that if the city is settled on the non shielded tile, the second cow is available from the beginning.

	26-12-2002 22:37									#20
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Temple - baaaaaaaa

We need to REX and build units for WAR.

None of our cities should be above size 3-4 at this stage.

	26-12-2002 22:38									#21
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Won’t pop rushing the temple cancel out the temple’s benefits? Doesn’t pop rushing result in someone being permanently unhappy (or unhappy for a very long time)?

	26-12-2002 22:52									#22
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Pop rushing results in unhapiness during 20 turns. The point is to see if the time saved justifies it or not. At the moment i'm not sure of one thing or another.

	26-12-2002 22:52									#23
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As Chief Architect, I think a Temple is a good idea for Pamplona. While this is in progress, the the city will grow and reach an optimum size for producing settlers better and faster. On the other hand, with a first temple our culture will grow faster. Remember that a temple will double the culture output of the city 500 years after this is built.

	27-12-2002 02:49									#24
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A temple??? I agree with GodKing's statement (I think in another thread) that it's a bit early for temples. We don't NEED a temple until a city reaches pop 4 (assuming you station a unit it in once it reaches pop 3), so why build a temple so early (unles you REALLY NEED that border expansion).

I'm thinking that spearmen (for now), barracks (if we get warrior code), city walls (if we get masonry), or even a worker might be better. Ultimately, this new city is going to have to be a settler factory for a while, so spearmen and settlers are likely the bulk of what it will build for some time to come.

	27-12-2002 03:24									#25
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For Spain, a temple will cost only 30 shields. IIRC, if our citizens do work first the cow tile, Pamplona will have a temple in only 10 turns and the borders will grow 5 turns later. Our culture counter will start growing, more than the other civs will do. At turn 10 we'll have a 2 pop city and the queue could be set to spearman and later, with a 3 pop city, set to settler.

I think that Madrid should build barracks before than Pamplona and become a military units production city instead a settler factory.

	27-12-2002 03:35									#26
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Good point señor Astrologix. The reason because building a temple in Pamplona is an option (a really good option in my opinion) is because it costs only 30 shields for us. We will never catch the industrious civs in worker production or, if we do, it will be at a very high cost. Let's take advantage of our strong points.

I also agree that Madrid should build barracks before Pamplona, but I'm not sure when it should be done. Anyway, I think that whenever this happens, Madrid would stop building settlers/workers, meanwhile Pamplona would continue doing that.

	27-12-2002 04:22									#27
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Ok, I can see that a temple would be useful for expanding hte borders of the new city... the question is whether it's worth 30 shields of production to gain that small bump in production from the cows. The temple will eventually be built, the question is the timing. How much will it speed up the new city as a settler factory for it to have the temple and thus access to more land for its 1-3 population (while performing the role of a settler factory)?

If the production gained over early REXing is worth more than the 30 shields that have to be spent on the temple, I'm for it. If we don't recoop the 30 shields until quite a bit later, I'm against it. Pretty simple. Perhaps someone should look at this more closely (I don't feel like doing that at the moment )

As for Madrid, my eventual plan is for Madrid to be a military unit and improvement factory, not a settler factory. That said, it HAS to initially be a settler factory if we are to REX up to an advantageous size. It seems that we have hte advantage of Neu Demogyptica being our own close neighbor and for them to be surrounded by other (and more hostile) opponents, giving us a good measure of additional security due to the luck of geographical relationships. We should take advantage of this and REX like mad for as long as we can get away with it. That won't be too long, as we'll need to transition Madrid (at least) to a military factory in the not-too-distant future, but at least for a time we can just pure REX.

	27-12-2002 15:26									#28
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Arnelos,

REX is very important, I know it. But Pamplona will be a particular city, because it has two cows tiles. So, we must use this advantage to boost his production. If we make the city grow to 3 pop, and then we do build a settler, we do waste the possibility of using the two cows permanently. The minimum pop of this city must be 2. This means that we only should create a settler when the city reaches (or is reaching) the 4 pop. We must increase the city growth capacity by irrigating the two cow tiles ASAP.

If we wait until that happens (the 4 pop) we'll have the time to create a temple, which will have two functions : increasing our culture and our borders, and prevent the city to be in disorder when it reaches the 4 pop.

If we give the 4 --> 2 --> 4 -->2 pop rythmus to this city, we could build settlers every 5-6 turns, or even less if the two cows tiles are irrigated.

I hope now I've exposed this idea more clearly.

	27-12-2002 16:12									#29
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix Arnelos, REX is very important, I know it. But Pamplona will be a particular city, because it has two cows tiles. So, we must use this advantage to boost his production. If we make the city grow to 3 pop, and then we do build a settler, we do waste the possibility of using the two cows permanently. The minimum pop of this city must be 2. This means that we only should create a settler when the city reaches (or is reaching) the 4 pop. We must increase the city growth capacity by irrigating the two cow tiles ASAP. If we wait until that happens (the 4 pop) we'll have the time to create a temple, which will have two functions : increasing our culture and our borders, and prevent the city to be in disorder when it reaches the 4 pop. If we give the 4 --> 2 --> 4 -->2 pop rythmus to this city, we could build settlers every 5-6 turns, or even less if the two cows tiles are irrigated. I hope now I've exposed this idea more clearly.

You have, very good explanation.

	27-12-2002 19:05									#30
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I'm going to set up a scenario this weekend to explore options for Pamplona. I have not made a final decision as to the location of the city in truth, and someone left that to me I am leaning towards the bonus grassland though for the location.

But I am open to pop-rushing or short-rushing at this early stage. A short-rush could be useful if a full pop-rush for a temple would kill off too many citizens, but I will work out the details in the scenario. I just have to build the darn thing first