20-09-2000 23:12									#1
	Another odd game Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I rarely play either Progenitor faction, but Marr came up the other day in a random faction game and what with Basil's thread I decided to give them another whirl.

The odd thing is that I am not always getting my free recycling tanks when I plant a new city. Sometimes I'll get something else. For example I've gotten a rec commons in one city and a net node in another.

I kind of like the uncertainty of it all so I am continuing to play. I know from other threads that people have gotten the wrong improvement in each city from an SP, but I haven't heard of this particular bug.

What about strategy? I've had a look at Velociryx's strat guide, but it doesn't seem to go into great depth. We have had great discussions here on every human faction, but I haven't seen too much on the aliens. Does anyone have some thoughts on this?

I'm still trying to get my mind around the unusual way income is calculated. An improvement with zero upkeep cost like the Thermocline Transducer actually makes you money in addition to the extra energy. I'm not exactly sure how the 50% econ bonus for an Energy Grid works for aliens, but I just built the PEG SP and it sure did something, big time.

	20-09-2000 23:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have similiar questions concerning the energy grid. Are SP generated base facilities counted when determining the Energy Grid? For example, if Marr builds both the Command Nexus and the Cloudbase Academy, does he get +1 Energy at each base for the facilities as well as the +5 for the two SP's?

	21-09-2000 23:36									#3
	Suffering from ads?

I'm pretty certain the PEG only gives bonuses for those facilities that were actually built. If you have 2 facilities of the same type, however, the PEG will take one into account, as that was actually built. I'm not certain about this, however.

	21-09-2000 23:57									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I started a SP Marr game just to check it out. His advantages are ridiculous. He begins the game with a massive turn advantage. The automatic Rec Tanks and the instantly available formers, get production off to a huge start. Also, with the extra colony pod, a Special Project can begin ASAP without hampering early expansion. The Ogre allows for early rushes on neighbors. He starts with a significant tech advantage. To top things off, his Miriam-esque attack bonus (not just in air combat as the datalinks state) makes him a terror. In short, I think it's hard to screw up with him.
The only downside of playing as an Alien is that you are begging to be nerve-gassed. As such, Marr cannot play builder. If he lets human faction get close to him, he is extemely vulnerable. The easy solution to this is needlejet interceptors, and lots of them. A couple kept on alert in each city will prevent any x-njet penetrators for doing much damage, and a constant patrol of the surounding "hinterlands" will prevent any ground or sea forces from getting close.

	22-09-2000 06:54									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

What defences can you install against Choppers? Do they suffer when you have an aerospace complex?

	22-09-2000 07:56									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I know you can add AAA, and put down a sensor, as well as an areospace complex. I wonder if tychon fields add to air defense? I know that perimeter defenses don't help agains the air attack. If you have SMAX you can build a flechette defense system, which I believe, also adds to air defense. There is also that ability in SMAX that negates any ability of the attacker. From what I understand X-penetrators are nearly unstoppable in SMAC, but don't quote me.

	23-09-2000 09:00									#7
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

All of those things help defending against air (inluding chopper) attacks. However, when dealing with nerve gas the trick is to eliminate any chance of attack. Never let an enemy base within 12 squares of your territory. If you zealously patrol your borders, you should be able to detect an attack.
Also, keep mindworms in your cities. Nerve gas does effect them or do damage to your population if they are killed.

	23-09-2000 09:02									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

All of those things help defending against air (inluding chopper) attacks. However, when dealing with nerve gas the trick is to eliminate any chance of attack. Never let an enemy base within 12 squares of your territory. If you zealously patrol your borders, you should be able to detect an attack.
Also, keep mindworms in your cities. Nerve gas does effect them or do damage to your population if they are killed.

	23-09-2000 00:24									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think kt means x-gas does NOT effect mindworms.

	24-09-2000 09:11									#10
	Put an end to popups!

Nerve gas? I've always been pretty lucky in SP. I've played a ton of games and in games that I have not used gas, I have only been gassed once.

I'm finding that the marine control feature is even more important than before. All those sea colony pods are juicy targets when I take over a human sea city.

Has anyone been able to figure out the energy calc for aliens?

	27-09-2000 22:28									#11
	Suffering from ads?

I don't think I saw more 10 AI choppers (other than the <1>-1-8) in all my SP games.
But I well saw a stack of 32 hive's needlejets in my last game (it was some 10 turns after I bought the city with the stack of 12).

	05-10-2000 09:35									#12
	Support Apolyton

Generally speaking, if you use interceptors to defend against nerve gas jets, you are dead meat (assuming tech parity). A missile xjet will mince a missile interceptor in a base - and take half your population with it. Actually, IIRC, my high-morale impact xjets weren't losing many battles against defending missile interceptors.

To defend against nerve gas, you have two options: empty your bases of troops if your enemy doesn't have drop capability and you can prevent land/sea units from taking the empty base. Alternatively build sentries with best armour/AAA and combine them with aerospace, creche and sensor. Perimeters do not help, but tachyons do.

Ran a test in the scenario editor, just to get the stats. The attacked base had aerospace, sensor, tachyon and creche. Armour and weapons were set to one in all cases.

The 1-<1>-1 sentry received the following boosts:
Tach: 100%
Aerospace: 100%
Sensor: 25%
AAA: 100%
Creche: +

The 1-<1>-10 interceptor received the following boosts:
Creche: +

Once you equip the attacking jet with nerve gas, the interceptor doesn't stand a chance. Even if it does manage to hold on by the skin of its teeth, a second air attack will certainly finish it with horrible consequences for the base.

The AAA sentry, however, will do a sterling job even with relatively poor armour.

It's true that mind worms negate the effects of gas, but they're not particularly strong defenders and they're pretty expensive.

I don't much like nerve gas, but in MP it's often necessary to use it. If it gets to that point, I always head straight for the bases with interceptors stationed in them, for an easy kill.

On the question of range, 12 squares may be enough against the AI, but not against a human player. I will quite happily send my jets out on a one-way trip to halve your base size - so my jets start with a range of 20 squares and this increases with reactor level

	08-10-2000 13:49									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

How about GravShips? Do you recieve same bonuses against them? When you get them, you are going to kick some ass...

	10-10-2000 00:36									#15
	Put an end to popups!

I have been under the impression that MP games don't last long enough to get to grav ships and the like...

	10-10-2000 04:46									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I've never built a gravship in MP, I must admit Since they are air units, I would assume that the defence bonuses would be the same, but I haven't tested it ...

	14-10-2000 11:42									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think the Progenitor factions got their rep as superfactions from their strength in the early game. I hear that most multiplayer games end in the first 100 turns. The Progenitors' advantages would make them hard to beat quickly. And in single-player the AI is too stupid to keep up with a player, let alone catch up to a player with a head start. But how would the Progenitors fare if they didn't win quickly and if their opponent was capable of staying in the game?

H'minee would do well. Since the Caretakers are capable of using all SE settings, she can build with the builders if she wishes. Or her +1 Planet will let her play hybrid like Deirdre, and her combat bonus helps in a momentum game. She is a true superfaction. But Marr is a different story.

He has one big disadvantage: no Democracy. This means it is quite difficult for him to pop boom, and it makes it hard for him to run a large colony, since the best efficiency he can get is +3. So he shouldn't be able to match a human-faction builder or hybrid at building. Since he doesn't get trade, submissives are much less valuable for him than they are for more conventional momentum factions. And he has additional disadvantages in diplomacy, and, as the game goes on, in trade: later on in the game trade becomes more valuable than the aliens' energy grid.

This suggests that his strategies should be most similar to those of Yang.

This is why I picked the settings for my Marr challenge as I did. Huge world (in two of the games) to prevent them from winning right off. And Transcend to maximize the difficulties Marr would suffer from his low efficiency, and to maximize the importance of the AI factions: as a human faction playing against Marr, the human AI's are my friends.

	24-10-2000 18:34									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I finished up my game and didn't come even close to my fastest transcend time with a human faction on double blind research. I have to agree with Basil that Marr is not as overpowered as some of the other posters have suggested, particularly if your game style is primarily builder.

Playing the aliens means taking a diplomatic hit. You have a lot more trouble maintaining friendships and alliances. This means less tech trading with the AI.

	24-10-2000 19:16									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Maybe I am missing something regarding defenses to nerve gas warfare but it strikes me that mindworms can be a great defense particularly as Cha dawn . Running a high planet rating means that you will quickly obtain replacements for those killed off. If emptying the city is not an option for fear of drop units I would station multiple mindworms in key cities and have a SAM rover or three ready to take out the noodle jets.

My experience comes from SP only when I was gassing the AI. I found that my jets were beating the mindworms but there was no population reduction and the jets took heavy damage. My thinking was that Sam Rovers, interceptors or Sam choppers could have put a big dent in the attack.

Is there any major drawback to all of this?? I know that the attacker could use some empath weapons to clear the native life more effectively. But what I am trying to find is the most effective ways to defend if forced to defend. Then I can make a foray into multiplayer with at least an idea of how to make it interesting since the level of knowledge exhibited on this board indicates I have a lot to learn.

Cbn

	25-10-2000 00:35									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

CBN -- yes, when an x-gas unit attacks a city with a mindworm in it and wins the city doesn't lose pop. (that's what I understand anyways).


RedFred -- I don't think the aliens are suited to play a builder game, neither would Marium be suited to play a strong tech game. I think some, if not all, factions have different stratagies that are more successfull than others. The aliens weren't neccessarily designed to be a builder and if you intend to play them that way they're going to look a bit weak.

	25-10-2000 07:12									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Cbn:

It's true that mindworms neutralise nerve gas capability, which means that even if the attacker wins, you don't lose pop.

The main drawback to using native lifeforms of any kind as defenders is the cost of building them. In addition, as you observe, they are not particularly strong defenders once empath attack is available. And late game, they are pretty much useless without the appropriate SPs.

As you say, when playing Cult/Gaians, you could perhaps hope to replace them free of charge by capturing new worms. But this is somewhat hit and miss - if you are under sustained attack, you can't base your defence on hoping to find and capture more worms.

Here are your options:

*Within range of nerve gas, out of range of drop troops.
Under these circumstances, I would empty my cities and build only attack units (nerve gas jets/choppers primarily, with cheap little impact jets for ZOC and plinking formers, supply crawlers and expensive terrain improvements, like boreholes/mines). I would build air complexes a) to increase the morale of my attack units and b) to defend against drop attacks, even if there were no immediate threat.

Then simply attack, attack, attack with everything you have.

*Within range of nerve gas, within drop range.
Yikes! Big problem. Never get yourself in this position If you *are* in this position, then the strategy will depend on the exact circumstances involved - how good is your best armour, can you rush aerospace before they are ready to drop, if the base is taken, can they hold it? Worst case, should you destroy certain vulnerable bases to prevent them from getting a foothold and give you a chance to develop your remaining cities? And so on. It's hard for me (too tactical, no strategy I'm afraid) to speculate ...

Here are some general guidelines that I've found to be useful though:

I have always found it to be better to build *attack* units (gas jets, gas choppers) rather than defensive SAM units. By the time you deploy SAM, the damage is being done. And where are you going to put them? Unless you build best armour on SAM land units, they are useless as defenders. Outside your cities, they are dead meat and inside your cities are simply asking for a dose of gas.

If your best armour can stand up to a nerve gas attack given the relative tech positions, it probably makes sense to spend your money on decent armoured/AAA garrisons while building pure attack units to put your opponent on the defensive.

Many people advocate using interceptors to defend against nerve gas jets/choppers. Well, all I can say is that in MP I *target* cities containing interceptors. They are an easy kill for a gas attacker with equivalent weapons or even lesser weapons - in many cases, I can easily take a missile interceptor with an impact x jet for example. And halve the city size to boot ... Of course, relative morale is important here.

Prior to orbital improvements, you can try to house interceptors in air bases outside the radius of your cities. This can be helpful when playing a momentum opponent with many small bases and fairly poor production. If you choose carefully, you can find a site that is unlikely to be discovered by the enemy for a while. But once they have a satellite, this is useless.

In terms of preparing for a nerve gas war, it's worth noting the following:

Air complexes are key, because they prevent drop attack while boosting air defence by 100%. For this reason, I tend to build these in key/vulnerable bases as soon as they are available.

Perimeters don't help at all - but tachyons *do* boost air defence. By 200%. Unfortunately, they come late.

Other ways to boost air defence: sensors, AAA, geosynchronous survey, creches.

I should add that I am a pure builder, not an ounce of momentum instinct in me. So these are what I consider to be *defensive* strategies - I have never yet declared war on another player in MP.

By the way, the best way to learn is to play against other humans, rather than the AI. The first game I played against humans, I suffered the most humiliating defeat you can imagine (gulp) - and learned more than I could write in a somewhat thick strategy guide Since then, my performance has improved considerably
[This message has been edited by Misotu (edited October 24, 2000).]

	25-10-2000 18:29									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks Misotu

That was a pretty comprehensive answer that confirmed a lot of what I had been thinking. The reality in SP is that my bases are not attacked that much since I am usually the one on the offensive. My view of this game is that it totally favours the attacker. Therefore my goal is similar to yours in that I attempt an "active defense" in that I usually try to keep hostile bases/units far far away.

My question was aimed at what do do when you are in that terrible position of being the defender of a gas attack. If they can't airdrop or otherwise land attack I would empty the city. If the remainder of my empire was out of range I would consider obliterating the city to gain time (last resort option).

But I am intrigued by the possibilities of mindworms, SAM units and air superiority choppers. At times as CHA Dawn I had possibilities of as high as +7 Planet (I find this made midworm capture very easy and the worms fairly resiliant). I wouldn't be able to rely on mindworm capture but each one of these is a free unit to bring into battle. I believe there was a thread that indicated that the chance of freebies decreased depending on the number of freebies you had currently. So as my free mindworms are destroyed I should pick up others over time. With agressive trolling I find thay are replaced very quickly.

I was trying to think of situations where I am being attacked but where the relative units/productive capacity/tech are not so lopsided that the result is a forgone conclusion. For example, attacker throws 6 gas needlejets at my major production centre. This is my most important city that is vulnerable (to either drop attack or amphibious landing)so I defend with mindworms. All the needlejets win (although a mindworm can win depending on relative morale/lifecycle/planet rating/SPs/luck). One or two air superiority choppers could plink them all. Or elite Sam Rovers would likely take out 2-3 each.


The end result is that I lose 6 mindworms but he should lose all 6 needlejets and I don't lose any productive capacity or population. I haven't checked the relative minerals to produce each (I think the needlejet is cheaper) but even a significant mineral cost difference might be worthwhile to keep the city unharmed (and as Cha dawn I will get freebie mindworms to replace those lost). I might try to counterattack using the suicide multiple attack x-chopper strike or even suicide gas needlejet runs. These would become much less attractive options if faced with a mindworm defender since the whole point of those runs is to cripple the city.

If the attacker were human (when i get into MP) this would communicate my willingness to fight to the last and perhaps weaken them to the point that they would be vulnerable to others. The reality is that if I don't have sufficient might to do some considerable damage I must be so far behind in tech/productive capacity that any defensive measures are probably futile. So all of this presupposes at least some level of parity in that the choices you make could actually matter.

I find these boards great and have been slowly going through all the threads. I do find though that one of the best ways to learn is to propose an approach and see what people have to say. I know that I am a relative newbie so if I totally miss things please bear with me.

CBN

	25-10-2000 22:15									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Weighing in on the X-airforce issue.

The impact of being put on a defensive posture is critical. If the sole intent is to simply hold onto what you have by filling bases with worms it is at best simply a stall tactic to an inevitable defeat. It is imperative to gain an ally to shut down/cause a diversion to the X-airforce juggernaut until you can respond in kind.

Worms tho' can be an effective short term defender if one simply has the following:
Nueral empath (SP), tachyon, aerospace, and sensors.

With those in hand you can compete effectively against even empath units cost of worms aside. (point taken on freebie captured worms but one also needs to understand that it takes time to relocate captured worms to emptied bases.)

I reemphasize tho' a purely defender role is not a position anyone wants to be in. It by default means you are losing. Defense of a base for the short term (1-2 turns) until you can respond is another issue. However repeated turn in turn out attacks of 2-3 X-choppers (or empath choppers) on your best base site will in the long run divert your base(s) to making defenders and not making facilites or attackers hence you have lost the war but won a few battles.

The attacker OTOH will continue making his cheaper attackers and allow him opportunities to grow his empire (either vertically or horizontally).

The game comes down to expansion (conquering or setting new bases) and growth (either base size or facility multipliers). Anything that prevents you from expanding or growing is a losing proposition. OTOH a credible threat (note: not actually engaging in war) that you can and will cause like damage to your opponent is the best defense. In a MAD scenario, the winners then become the other players that sit on the sidelines gaining their strength whilst the two warring parties take themselves out of the picture. Reminds of that game Mis had wherein she was the Cyborgs in 1st place, Zach in second nuked her and the Morgan player sat on the sidelines moving from from 3rd position to 1st. (good reading that MP game as all players were attempting to relay press releases in character).

	26-10-2000 00:27									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OO

1. I agree fully I NEVER want to be the defender.
2. I also agree that my replacement mindworms will probably be too far away to be of any immediate help and it will take a few turns to capture replacements. My comment was meant more to be about the fact that these were "free" in the first place as Cha Dawn(or if Planet rating is high)and they will be replaced "free" over time. Therefore the high cost of mindworms is not that relevant if I am looking at the outcome of battles-- ie the relative mineral expenditure. My production centres are able to pump out either attackers or defenders. My goal is to hold that important city until I can splash some gas on the attackers positions.

3. Doesn't tachyon come rather late to help in these attacks?

4. I agree fully that if all I do is defend death is inevitable. Attackers will establish closer launch sites such that I would find other cities decimated.
Thats why I talked about picking off his jets and launching some counterstrikes.
5. If this were MP I would be calling out for an ally but even without one my goal would be to show that the price of a successful attack would be so high as to be detrimental to victory. Defense to gas is hard/expensive for both sides so a few shots at his forward bases or long range suicide chopper runs into the heartland could convince the warmonger to give peace a chance.


I can see I will have to find time for multiplayer so that I can see some of this stuff in action.

CBN

	26-10-2000 01:07									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

CBN,

Re: Tachyons, you are very correct sir by the time airpower is in hand or more importantly MMI tachyon is still aways off.

As a consequence, X-air power is a must have for a player in order to deter agression. Nothing says beat me up like being unable to defend yourself. While nothing scares a bully away like having his nose bloodied as well.

I always wanted to create a probe unit with Sam capability but alas no luck. Personally I still stand by my opinion that nerve capability comes way to early in the game and that no credible defense exists against it. Seems to me Firaxis should have come up with either an SP or facility that negates the 1/2 population loss after all they certainly have capabilities to prevent/defend against planet busting even if it is late in the game (prob is the window of opportunity to planet bust is pretty large and for nerve gas its practically the whole game). But again should haves and could haves aren't necessarily reality.

Good luck

Og

P.S. By the by has anyone ever played an MP game where it was understood that nerve ability and PB's were offlimits (ie. all players agreed to no Nerve or PB's at game start up). If so how did it go?

	26-10-2000 02:30									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Ogie/CBN

It's true that tachyons come late in the game. It's also true that I have built them in at least three of my recent games. I expect to build more.

Tachyons tend to appear in games where the power is reasonably balanced and everyone is vying for position and not quite willing to attack. This is especially true in the 3-player tourny games where there is no co-op victory. With three strong players, everyone knows that the two who fight will lose the game. It makes it ... quite interesting

I agree with you Ogie, nerve gas comes too early and there is no way even of moderating its impact. There probably should be, even if it arrives later and is expensive. Having said that, I owe my skin to nerve gas in a couple of games now - as a builder, I can just about get x jets a few turns before dozens of Momentum impact/missile rovers will come rushing in.

I've never played a game where we agreed no busters/no nerve gas. I'm not sure whether I'd want to do this now - a buster is not necessarily the end of the world. I *would* have liked to see something in the game to mitigate nerve gas - but that'll never happen now ...

	26-10-2000 05:52									#27
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I should not post this.
Because I'm tired, and in danger of looking stupid.
But if I build an airfield near a city, put interceptors in the airfield, none in the city, wont the interceptors scramble to defend the city, and if they die, not being in the city, wont they not cost the city any population?
So have an SAM rover in the city, with good attck, and a bunch of 1-1 interceptors in the airbase (as cannon fodder, they'll be much cheaper to crank out than your enemies attack planes), or if he uses choppers, a really good elite attack plane in the airbase.
Is this stupid? Does it make sense? If it's an error, I'm just tired, but it sounds like it might work....
Black Sunrise

	26-10-2000 06:35									#28
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Doesn't sound stupid to me. I was wondering the same thing. I would think you would need more than a couple interceptors in the airfield in case there are multiple attacks on the base though. Good idea. Anyone have the answer or will you make us suffer through the scenario editor?

	26-10-2000 07:07									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

No, I didn't have the answer so I tried the scenario editor just quickly as I had something set up that was easy to try. Basically, when my interceptor scrambled from the airfield, it went *into* the base to defend. Then it lost. And then the base pop was halved.

I suspect that where the interceptor goes is going to depend on the relationship between it and the attacking unit, in terms of the vector. It's an interesting idea - if you knew *exactly* where the attacking units were going to come from, maybe you could build an airbase in the right position so that the battle was fought outside the city. But it's a bit hit and miss, and all the attacker has to do is work out what's happening and then attack from the right angle ...

	27-10-2000 08:47									#30
	Put an end to popups!

cbn - a couple more thoughts on the native defenders idea. First the obvious: Any green faction can come up with a good supply of native life for free. At least, free in terms of build cost. Some of your units will likely be independents and others will have a maintenance cost attached to one of your cities if the native unit is not on fungus.

If the native unit is a worm or a iod I'll generally have them out patrolling the fungus or engaging the enemy (or maybe transporting stuff for the iod), but I am at a loss as what to do with the excess spore launchers. They are sub-optimal as fungus patrollers.

Sometimes I won't have a nearby battle to throw them into. If that is the case and if the spore launcher is an independent, then I'll designate defender and start placing them in my coastal/frontier cities. Handy against pesky but ineffectual AI ship attacks. Also handy against missiles. The unit was free to start with so you haven't really lost anything and you've saved your star defender for another battle.