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DaveMcW
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Well, you're certainly not playing the English for their UU!
Expansionist works best on larger maps, where there are enough huts to get you a large gold/tech lead early on. Commercial gives 25% less corruption in the industrial and modern ages, allowing your large map civ to become even larger.
The one competition I think the English could win at is most gold by the end of a game.
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Pyrodrew
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English UU becomes obsolete too quick. Commercial is better on larger maps, but unlike other traits, Commercial you cannot use... it just happens. So, see Aeson's Expansionist Thread & use the Expansionist trait as best you can.
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Dominae
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I played the English once for the Expansionism AU (forgot the course number...): I was not impressed, but was also pleasantly surprised to see that they're not horrible.
As mentioned above, the English are good at two things: 1) sprawling empires across a large land mass, and 2) making money. The first obviously feeds into the second, to some extent. England's two traits are somewhat synergistic: Expansionist can get you off to a fast start city-wise, and then Commercial steps in and takes over for the long haul. The real problem is that the English are not very good if they do not start on a big continent (quite "unrealistic" as it were). Thus, they are probably the most "situational" civ, and thus the poorest overall.
The UU doesn't help. It is quite easy for the English to trigger a GA through Wonders, so that use of their UU is inconsequential. Given that the English are only good on large continents (from above), a naval UU is also inconsequential. Finally, to add insult to injury, the Man'O-War's bonus stats are really not that impressive compared the standard Frigate. It would have been cool to make the English UU an Industrial age Fighter replacement, but comments like that belong in the General forum.
Dominae
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ducki
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
The UU doesn't help. It is quite easy for the English to trigger a GA through Wonders, so that use of their UU is inconsequential...
Dominae |
I found this a tiny bit interesting.
IIRC, you feel the Americans are a serious "powerhouse" civ, though they have the same UU problem and must also trigger the GA with Wonders.
Do you find that the difference between Industrious and Commercial is the reason for the difference between "not horrible" and "powerhouse"?
Or could the culture linking be more important here than normally?
Not trying to start anything, just curious.
I'm a big fan of Commercial, though usually only when paired with Industrious.
Also, I tend to start my GAs with Wonders whenever possible. I prefer to get the Wonders, knowing I'll use my GA, than to hold off on it for UU-timing.
I also don't play at your level, which probably makes a big difference in the importance of the UU-triggered GA.
Anyway, I'm wondering what makes the Americans a killer civ and the Engilsh merely not horrible.
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justjake73
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I have been trying to decide on whether to start a game as an expansionistic civ because I get a lot of early tech from goody huts, and I want to avoid barbarians. I have been leaning towards the English because of their Commercial trait, but their UU (as it has been said in this thread) isn't really useful. What do people think of the Russians as opposed to the English? What about the Americans?
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ducki
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If you check out "Civ Specific Strategy: America" you'll find that some here think America is very very strong.
Personally, if I were going to try out Expansionist, I'd probably go for Arabs (Religious) or America(Industrious).
Also, people seem to like Arabia due to the UU - Sipahi, a cheap Knight level unit with one less defense.
(EDIT: Ansar Warrior, not Sipahi. Sipahi are the extra-strength Cav UU for the Ottomans.)
There's a "Civ-specific Strategy: Arabs" also, though not as fleshed out as America.
Edit2 - The America thread - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=70559
Last edited by ducki on 28-12-2002 at 00:34
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by ducki
I found this a tiny bit interesting.
IIRC, you feel the Americans are a serious "powerhouse" civ, though they have the same UU problem and must also trigger the GA with Wonders.
Do you find that the difference between Industrious and Commercial is the reason for the difference between "not horrible" and "powerhouse"?
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Basically yes. But, there is a lot to be said for the "simple" difference of one civ being Industrious and one civ being Commercial. One, many people will rank Commercial at the bottom of the trait list, and Industrious at the top. Two, Industrious/Expansionist is highly synergistic especially early on, while Commercial/Expansionist requires a very specific map to be effective (and even then there's nothing to write home about). Third, although I've never used the F-15, I can imagine it being quite a bit more useful than the Man'O-War, simply because the Fighter is a more useful unit than the Frigate. Fourth, the Americans trigger GAs with Wonders more easily because they're Industrious (faster builds, on average).
Oh, and if you're trying to start a fight ducki, use the appropriate emoticons:
Dominae
P.S: 
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justjake73
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ah - ok, I searched for threads with traits and expansionistic, but didn't notice this was the PTW forum. I don't have PTW, so the Arabs are out, but thanks, I'll check out the thread.
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Dominae
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Don't worry ducki, I'm pretty sure you're being confrontational to force me to clarify my opinions, which is a good thing; criticism is a wonderful source of knowledge (for me and for you).
Although I never thought of it this way, I suppose the Americans and the English are quite similar. The major difference is just that the Amercians are way better, IMO.
Dominae
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SanPellegrino
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
Given that the English are only good on large continents (from above), a naval UU is also inconsequential. Finally, to add insult to injury, the Man'O-War's bonus stats are really not that impressive compared the standard Frigate.
Dominae |
I don't think so, england is the only civ starting with alphabet and pottery, so they got a good chance for the lighthouse. They fare better than others starting on an island and on a pure archipelago map, they got a huge advantage IMHO. Ok the ManOWar is of little use, but I think only because ironclads come directly after.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by SanPellegrino
I don't think so, england is the only civ starting with alphabet and pottery, so they got a good chance for the lighthouse. They fare better than others starting on an island and on a pure archipelago map, they got a huge advantage IMHO.
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Good point. Unfortunately, England's two traits do not support this strategy: putting Scouts on boats is not the best use of resources, and even the Commercial trait doesn't help cross-island Corruption (in most cases). Although England probably has the best chance at the Great Lighthouse, it needs to rely on this bonus alone to win on Archipelago maps. It seems that England is a very situational civ, since it is only "good" at opposite ends of the spectrum (archipelago and large continents). IMO, it doesn't even excel in either of these situations.
Dominae
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yxhuvud
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> Fourth, the Americans trigger GAs with Wonders more easily because they're Industrious (faster builds, on average).
Not as simple as you put it here. From the middle ages and on, your developed cities in a commercial civ should produce about the same amount as an industrial civ. It is reduced corruption vs bonus production (btw, does anyone know if the bonus production/trade is subject to corruption?).
And as you build your wonders in your developed cities, it shouldn't matter that the cities not as developed produces a little less.
Of course, I do belong in the small group of people that actually ranks commercial quite high, I feel that my empire produces so much more than it would have otherwise 
Have anyone did a study comparing two identical civs, one commercial and one something else (no industrial), on identical maps, just to see just how much more *production* and money the commercial civ gets, on different sizes of the civ (say, up till OCN*2 or something similar)
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by yxhuvud
> Fourth, the Americans trigger GAs with Wonders more easily
> because they're Industrious (faster builds, on average).
Not as simple as you put it here. From the middle ages and on, your developed cities in a commercial civ should produce about the same amount as an industrial civ. It is reduced corruption vs bonus production (btw, does anyone know if the bonus production/trade is subject to corruption?).
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Industrious Workers allow tile improvements to be laid down faster. This in turn leads to earlier completion of infrastructure in Wonder cities (Temples, Aqueducts, etc.). So, on average, Industrious civs should be able to commence (and therefore complete) Wonder builds before non-Industrious ones. The extra production is just icing on the cake.
quote:
And as you build your wonders in your developed cities, it shouldn't matter that the cities not as developed produces a little less.
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Precisely. The reduced Corruption effect of Commercial civs does not really come into play for Wonder-building, because Wonders are typically built in core cities, where Corruption is low in the first place.
Dominae
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SanPellegrino
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quote:
Originally posted by Dominae
It seems that England is a very situational civ, since it is only "good" at opposite ends of the spectrum (archipelago and large continents). IMO, it doesn't even excel in either of these situations.
Dominae |
You're right, England isn't my favorite either (nor anyones, what I read here), but I think they are better as most people think. In one game I had a really bad starting location, but managed to clear all the huts from those little islands around, which gave me a big tech lead and lay fundament for my later victory.
Which shows you're right about the "opposite ends of the spectrum", I think England is a very "extreme" civ.
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yxhuvud
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> infrastructure in Wonder cities (Temples, Aqueducts, etc.). So, on average, Industrious civs should be able to commence (and therefore complete) Wonder builds before
Yes, I realize that. That is why I added the clause that it was from the middle ages and on. That industrious beats commercial productionwise in the ancient age is kinda obvious.
> The reduced Corruption effect of Commercial civs does not really come into play for Wonder-building, because Wonders are typically built in core cities, where Corruption is low in the first place.
In one way your reasoning wokrs, but on the other hand, the core in a commercial civ is bigger than a core in a noncommercial civ, meaning there is more cities in it, which leads to higher chance of having a city with really good production in the core.
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by yxhuvud
Yes, I realize that. That is why I added the clause that it was from the middle ages and on. That industrious beats commercial productionwise in the ancient age is kinda obvious.
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What you seem to be saying is that, in the Medieval age, when city size is maxed out and all relevant tile and city improvements are in place, there is not much difference between the Wonder-producing abilites of Industrious and Commercial civs. This is certainly obvious, but Industrious still wins out because of the extra production in Cities and Metros.
quote:
In one way your reasoning wokrs, but on the other hand, the core in a commercial civ is bigger than a core in a noncommercial civ, meaning there is more cities in it, which leads to higher chance of having a city with really good production in the core. |
With a Palace core and a FP core, there is usually an abundance of productive cities that are good candidates for Wonder-building (although never enough for unit-building, it seems!). There are simply not that many Wonders available at a particular time. In my experience, Commercial civs do not grab Wonders more easily because they have a larger number productive cities.
Dominae
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26-12-2002 13:18
...second time (current game) every AI hates me and I am kicking their butts
!! 
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