27-12-2002 04:05									#31
	Tired of ads?

"The art of arranging sounds in time so as to produce a continuous, unified, and evocative composition, as through melody, harmony, rhythm, and timbre. "

That's the definition of "music", incidentally, and I'm struggling to believe that I actually bothered to look it up.

	27-12-2002 04:07									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

music

	27-12-2002 04:08									#33
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well I said music in the title so my bad...

and Buck:

I dont know about Barrington Levy. It was just being showcased and it featured a rapper i'm obviously familiar with so I figured I'd give it a try. It's still being downloaded though. I'll also add the TOK one to the queu.

And I was meaning to ask you... have you ever heard of producers like DJ Premier, Alchemist, Large Professor, and Havoc? Their production is more instrumental sounding (and darker) than something like Neptunes or Timbaland, but I prefer their beats over the party kind.


thanks

	27-12-2002 04:16									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Albert! You've gone all young and modern on us! Avatar-wise, that is.

	27-12-2002 04:18									#35
	Tired of ads?

That Barrington Levy track is from 1999. The production sounds real odd... like West Coast but different from the west coast production I'm used to hearing (dre, and all the producers who worked with 2pac). It still got that West Coast bounciness though.

	27-12-2002 04:26									#36
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Boddingtons: I always thought this was interesting.. Ghostface Killah's The Forest

Albert, I'm a recent fan of hip hop myself, and I value lyrics over music anyday. Although its great when they can sometimes come together like in the song "Nas is like" by Nas. I think thats got a wicked minimalist beat with really intellectual lyrics.

But trying to convert rock fans into even admitting that rap is music is like asking a straight man to go gay. I don't know why, but it is. Rock has kind of a propaganda machine behind it that says if its not played on a guitar or recognized as "good" by the white musical elite (as in jazz or classical), its just drivel. I used to believe this too, but once you start learning about rap and hip hop, I realized that its the only form of contemporary music left with anything up its sleeve (of value that is).

Its sad really, all these alterna-rockers who think they're just so smart and that they're taste is just so good are really being dwarfed intellectually behind their own backs by the likes of Nas and Rakim, etc...

I wish they'd just give it a chance (and not judge it by what they hear on MTV) instead of dismissing it as sh*t hop like old boddy did.

I think what it is is that rock is background music, as in you can enjoy it but not really have to listen to it, while rap is something that you pro-actively have to follow (lyrically) to really get. But once you get it, oh boy, what a new world it opens you up to. Rockers just don't seem to have the attention span to make the leap it seems.

But I'm not worried. Sooner or later, they'll all see who the prophet is

	27-12-2002 04:30									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Anyway... to answer the question, definitely the music, but the lyrics can enhance a fine tune further.

	27-12-2002 04:32									#38
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Slowwhand:

Say what?


Buck:

I got the TOK track... what the hell are those men saying? I can only pick up a few words. Their accents are too strong. That'll probably prevent me from getting into dancehall and probably also is what's stopping them from getting a big american audience. Their production sounds notably east coast though. It's probably like UK rap or something... people might really get into it if they could understand what they're saying


thanks

	27-12-2002 04:34									#39
	Suffering from ads?

They're both important.

A good song has good lyrics and good music.

There are many songs in my collection, however, without lyrics.

There are zero songs in my collection without music.

So, by basic logic, music is more important.

Rap is crap, although there are the rare artists who can write beautiful lyrics they rarely have the music to back it up so it ends up being beat-centric poetry...no thanks.

	27-12-2002 04:38									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Jimmy:

Yeah Nas is Like is a good song... and for Buck, it's a perfect example (albeit from 99) of DJ Premier's production to an excellent rapper's lyrics.

And did you get Nas' new CD, God's Son? Rakim is also slated for a new CD this spring. Rap has been twindling for a little bit the past two years but I think it'll be coming back. Are you a fan of AZ and Cormega too?


thanks

	27-12-2002 04:42									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

oh yeah Jimmy, and you should download some Killah Priest. He's probably the best lyricist out of Wu-tang and has a group, The Four Horsemen, which in my opinion is the best rap group around... Killah Priest, Cannibus, Kurupt (Philly!), and Ras Kass. unfortunately, they still haven't made an album together but only appeared on each other's individual cds


thanks

	27-12-2002 04:54									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Lyrics is defently most important... I can't stand to hear a "song", when there's no good lyrics, or no lyrics at all... While a song without the instruments can be good...

Too bad, only few people around the world, knows how to make some really good lyrics... Most people only make standard lyrics (= heard before)

	27-12-2002 05:16									#43
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Jimmy: Yeah Nas is Like is a good song... and for Buck, it's a perfect example (albeit from 99) of DJ Premier's production to an excellent rapper's lyrics. And did you get Nas' new CD, God's Son? Rakim is also slated for a new CD this spring. Rap has been twindling for a little bit the past two years but I think it'll be coming back. Are you a fan of AZ and Cormega too? thanks

Yeah I am. I think we have the same taste in rap... sort of that QB style.

Yeah, I've downloaded a bunch of sh*t from God's Son (yeah yeah, I'll buy it eventually though ) and though I haven't had a chance to get deep into it, I think "Made you Look" and "heaven" are the best ones so far... btw, Jully Black (the chick from heaven) is Canadian which is wierd for a major release... oh and she sucks by the way in all of her other stuff. Just a little aside there. But all in all it seems pretty solid. Although I think Stillmatic was better, but then again I haven't really given God's Son a very good listen yet.

Lately I've been going and finding some unreleased/underground Nas raps on kazaa. And there are some really good ones out there. Like check out "the god" or "true dialect"... just some off the top of my head, there are others though.

If you want to hear some BAD rap on the other hand, check out some of the great Canadian "Emcees" out there such as "choclair" or "kardinal offishal". They blow so so so hard. They're so fake too... they have to fake the accent and they don't do a good job either.

	27-12-2002 05:18									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Albert:

I didn't know Rakim had another CD in the works. What do you think of Rakim's solo stuff anyways? I think that while lyrically, he's still pretty sharp, his stuff kind of lost its edge since he left Eric B. It just doesn't move me like his old stuff did.

	27-12-2002 05:37									#45
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Jimmy:

I should be repping Philly but Queensbridge has the best rappers out now.

As for Nas unreleased tracks... God is on a limited edition Bonus disc on God's Son which also got another hot song, P_ussy Killz. That song is yet another good example of Nas' amazing ability as a story-teller. Also, he had a cd, The Lost Tapes come out on Sept. 24 with unreleased songs that didn't make it on I Am and Stillmatic. Every song on there is the ****. You got to get the Lost Tapes.

I personally think God's Son is better than Stillmatic. God's Son's only downfall is there's nothing brand new and creative like how Stillmatic had Rewind and what not. Still, songs like Last Real Nigga Alive and Get Down show Nas as the best story-teller in rap, Book of Rhymes is creative because he's spitting from his unreleased and half-written songs... and the rest of the songs (except for the weak Zone Out) are intelligent and hot as ****.

As for some unreleased tracks, go check out One on One...

and I know about Canadian rappers... Snow got to be one of the most mocked rappers besides Vanilla Ice and Hammer... though that man did do a song with MC Shan who brought Queensbridge on the map.

and I agree, Rakim is kind of falling off. But he's signed to Dre's label now and hopefully with Dre's production, Rakim will come back to his old standing


thanks

	27-12-2002 06:44									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Oh, ok... well, I'm not really up on alot of that stuff. Being in Canada, when it comes to rap I'm pretty much limited to Kazaa and allmusic.com when I want to find out about new stuff. Sucks.

And I have checked out the Lost Tapes (some of it) and that stuff is tight.

Have you heard the stillmatic promo "freestyle" (I quote it because I don't know if its a real freestyle). The one with the H to the izzo M to the izzo Jay Z diss on it. I love that kind of stuff. You probably have on US radio at least. Do you know of any other stuff kind of like that, as in less mainstream/ major release Nas stuff? Like I said, here in Canada I'm pretty much in the dark. Or do you have any websites that you check frequently that tell you about it?

Last edited by JimmyCracksCorn on 27-12-2002 at 07:19

	27-12-2002 07:13									#47
	Put an end to popups!

NOTE: When I say 'music,' I'm referring to lyricless music, ie instrumental.

I'd have to say music. Though lyrics may convey more emotion, music can also convey emotion, and is fitting in places where lyrics might actually detract from the mood. As well, music can convey emotion by itself or accompanied with lyrics, while lyrics have much more difficulty conveying emotion without instruments.

And finally, from a musician's perspective, instruments have a greater variety of sound, are much more versatile (you can put many words to a song, but not many songs with certain words), and are much more able at keeping rythm and beat.

Music also had a wider appreciation value.....Christian and Muslim, Canadian and Tibetan alike can all appreciate, or at least stand listening to, many great classical pieces, although some may not like some of the more ethnic pieces (which is a shame really), yet countless could be offended by the simplist Christmas carol, or cannot stand to listen to pop or hip hop (*ahem* ).

Music, if done right, can also convey the same emotion or mood conveyed by lyrics, while being more subtle or gently about it.

And most importantly, it's a lot easier I find to relax to music than lyrical music (Boris being an obvious exception ).

	27-12-2002 07:21									#48
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Switch NOTE: When I say 'music,' I'm referring to lyricless music, ie instrumental. I'd have to say music. Though lyrics may convey more emotion, music can also convey emotion, and is fitting in places where lyrics might actually detract from the mood. As well, music can convey emotion by itself or accompanied with lyrics, while lyrics have much more difficulty conveying emotion without instruments. And finally, from a musician's perspective, instruments have a greater variety of sound, are much more versatile (you can put many words to a song, but not many songs with certain words), and are much more able at keeping rythm and beat. Music also had a wider appreciation value.....Christian and Muslim, Canadian and Tibetan alike can all appreciate, or at least stand listening to, many great classical pieces, although some may not like some of the more ethnic pieces (which is a shame really), yet countless could be offended by the simplist Christmas carol, or cannot stand to listen to pop or hip hop (*ahem* ). Music, if done right, can also convey the same emotion or mood conveyed by lyrics, while being more subtle or gently about it. And most importantly, it's a lot easier I find to relax to music than lyrical music (Boris being an obvious exception ).

Thats what so great about rap... its so radical. It goes against the norms of all previous types of music.

	27-12-2002 08:44									#49
	Put an end to popups!

JimmyCracksCorn:

Actually rap is the only remnant of previous types of music. Before the 18th century, music was chiefly a lower class affair. It had simple rhythms with minimal instruments and was mainly someone singing or chanting rhymed stories... most of the time they were dirty drinking songs, but there is still something good about rhymed songs created, memorized, and song by illiterate peasants in Europe, West Africa, etc. Rap is the continuation of this ancient tradition.


And living in Philly, which is a major rap city, I always am kind of close to the rap world. Most of my boys listen to rap so we be sharing information and having arguements about ****. Also, I get songs early. They either get radio play or make their way on mix-tapes. For five dollars spent on the corner or on the subway, I can hear songs months before they get radio play. I was listening to a bootleg God's Son minus a few songs, in fact, two weeks before its official release. Where in Canada do you live? I expect some place like Toronto probably got a strong rap fan base that they would be having bootlegging and a lot of rap stations... but if you live in Alberta or something...

But anyway, I don't know what else I know of by Nas that you might not have... the j-homo freestyle only got radio play and mixtapes because it was about that little beef and that **** always gets played but most unreleased songs only start showing up before an album drops. Lost Tapes got a couple of his unreleased tracks... also peep that song I mentioned already One on One... that **** is blazing... Untouchable Lifestyle... Final Destination, Street Kings, and It's Mine all with Mobb Deep... When Thugz Die off this DJ Clue ****... Nas had a hot song off 8 Mile soundtrack, You Wanna Be Me... My Worst Enemy is hot too... Sometimes I Wonder is nice... there's a lot of ****. Most of it is probably on Kazaa. Among Kings about him dying... this song with Large Proff, Stay Chizzled... i heard it was hot but I aint hear it yet.

as for sites... go to www.hiphopdx.com it's a Canadian hip hop site. also go to www.ohhla.com the lyric place where they got lyrics from some unreleased songs of dozens of artists.


thanks

Last edited by Albert Speer on 27-12-2002 at 08:54

	27-12-2002 10:24									#50
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer JimmyCracksCorn: Actually rap is the only remnant of previous types of music. Before the 18th century, music was chiefly a lower class affair. It had simple rhythms with minimal instruments and was mainly someone singing or chanting rhymed stories... most of the time they were dirty drinking songs, but there is still something good about rhymed songs created, memorized, and song by illiterate peasants in Europe, West Africa, etc. Rap is the continuation of this ancient tradition. And living in Philly, which is a major rap city, I always am kind of close to the rap world. Most of my boys listen to rap so we be sharing information and having arguements about ****. Also, I get songs early. They either get radio play or make their way on mix-tapes. For five dollars spent on the corner or on the subway, I can hear songs months before they get radio play. I was listening to a bootleg God's Son minus a few songs, in fact, two weeks before its official release. Where in Canada do you live? I expect some place like Toronto probably got a strong rap fan base that they would be having bootlegging and a lot of rap stations... but if you live in Alberta or something... But anyway, I don't know what else I know of by Nas that you might not have... the j-homo freestyle only got radio play and mixtapes because it was about that little beef and that **** always gets played but most unreleased songs only start showing up before an album drops. Lost Tapes got a couple of his unreleased tracks... also peep that song I mentioned already One on One... that **** is blazing... Untouchable Lifestyle... Final Destination, Street Kings, and It's Mine all with Mobb Deep... When Thugz Die off this DJ Clue ****... Nas had a hot song off 8 Mile soundtrack, You Wanna Be Me... My Worst Enemy is hot too... Sometimes I Wonder is nice... there's a lot of ****. Most of it is probably on Kazaa. Among Kings about him dying... this song with Large Proff, Stay Chizzled... i heard it was hot but I aint hear it yet. as for sites... go to www.hiphopdx.com it's a Canadian hip hop site. also go to www.ohhla.com the lyric place where they got lyrics from some unreleased songs of dozens of artists. thanks

Cool thanks, some of those I haven't heard of so I'll be downloading them soon.

But I live in Ottawa about 4 hours from Toronto but more importantly 2 hours from Montreal, but I'm not exactly into french rap. And don't be fooled... no place in Canada is a good for rap, honestly. People here like to pretend its better than the US, but its just a front. I suppose in Toronto there is a big(ger) bootlegging scene than the rest of the country, but its still mostly just bootlegging lame Toronto emcees. Or we'll get something two years later.

	27-12-2002 11:12									#51
	Got spare money?

oh yeah and jimmy... the reason why so many unreleased nas songs are getting on the internet and on mixtapes is because he's going to release a Lost Tapes II in early 2003... that man is trying to prove he's the best thing in hip hop so he's getting hyper with releases.

	27-12-2002 11:52									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Why do you have to choose? That's why lyrics and music were put together in the first place.

"You got CHOCOLATE in my peanut butter!" "You got PEANUT BUTTER on my chocolate!"

	27-12-2002 12:07									#53
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer oh yeah and jimmy... the reason why so many unreleased nas songs are getting on the internet and on mixtapes is because he's going to release a Lost Tapes II in early 2003... that man is trying to prove he's the best thing in hip hop so he's getting hyper with releases.

Ah, ok... that makes sense. One of the reasons I'm asking is because I'm putting together a CD of all of the better unreleased sh*t/freestyles I can find and I want to make it as broad a mix as possible.

And good insight with the the rap being an ancient tradition thing. I was thinking of it more along the lines of it being radical compared to other types of contemporary music. But thats dead on from a much older perspective. It just enhances my respect for the genre.

	27-12-2002 14:44									#54
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I vastly prefer music to lyrics, and have the music collection to prove it. Music speaks more readily to my emotions because it is intensely emotional at times without being specific. Thus a sad song feels sad even if my sadness and that of the author are about completely different things. This is one reason I like Wagner's overtures so much. They are intensely emotional, and they effect me even though Wagner and I have very little in common by way of specific life events. As an added bonus, instrumental music is much better at transcending language and cultural barriers, and its shelf life is much longer for the same reason.

	27-12-2002 18:08									#55
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Tend to agree largely with Sikander... the music is what music is all about... otherwise you may as well read poety.

That said, some (most) of my favourite music has lyrics that I love, though often the way the lyrics are sung mean much more than the printed words.

My favourite group is Nirvana, partly because depending on what mood I'm in I can focus on the music, lyrics, or singing, and they are all amazing.

	27-12-2002 19:50									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Music. First and foremost, there are the classicals where there are no lyrics. Secondly, you can dance to music alone, but you can't dance to lyrics alone

That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match. Upbeat lyrics should go with upbeat music, and depressing lyrics should go with depressing music. Otherwise, they just kill each other.

	27-12-2002 20:13									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

--"It's just an interesting song because it's about cartoon characters coming to life"

Is that what that was supposed to be about? The author seems to have confused some characters from books and other sources (like Muppets) in there. Although I guess he could just be a Disnified rapper...
In any case, I don't see anything remotely interesting about them.

--"But trying to convert rock fans into even admitting that rap is music is like asking a straight man to go gay."

Heh. I was kind of wondering if anyone would get around to noting that rap isn't music

Still, although I have the rare decent hip-hop song, I have yet to hear a single good rap song that wasn't a parody.

Two more points, though. I haven't watched MTV since they stopped running Daria (and it's not like they've shown music videos in the last ten years anyway), and rock is not the only other type of music out there.
I've been listening to a lot of classical style pieces lately. There's also jazz, blues, electronica, the list goes on. Rock and pop are highly derivative in the mainstream, but then again, so is rap...

--"That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match."

Not always. When pulled off properly the contrast can work. Of course, doing it properly is always the trick and there don't seem to be that many good lyricists around these days.

Wraith
"People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet."
-- Witold Lutoslawski

	27-12-2002 22:18									#58
	Tired of ads?

Wraith:

It's a joke song... damn... it's interesting because it's something odd... how many songs you know where someone's talking about Bugs Bunny and whoever else?


Jimmy:

I asked my boys for some more nas songs... Take a Ride and Day Dreaming Stay Scheming...


thanks

Last edited by Albert Speer on 28-12-2002 at 00:37

	27-12-2002 23:16									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"It's just an interesting song because it's about cartoon characters coming to life" Is that what that was supposed to be about? The author seems to have confused some characters from books and other sources (like Muppets) in there. Although I guess he could just be a Disnified rapper... In any case, I don't see anything remotely interesting about them. --"But trying to convert rock fans into even admitting that rap is music is like asking a straight man to go gay." Heh. I was kind of wondering if anyone would get around to noting that rap isn't music Still, although I have the rare decent hip-hop song, I have yet to hear a single good rap song that wasn't a parody. Two more points, though. I haven't watched MTV since they stopped running Daria (and it's not like they've shown music videos in the last ten years anyway), and rock is not the only other type of music out there. I've been listening to a lot of classical style pieces lately. There's also jazz, blues, electronica, the list goes on. Rock and pop are highly derivative in the mainstream, but then again, so is rap... --"That being said, for a song, the lyrics and music should match." Not always. When pulled off properly the contrast can work. Of course, doing it properly is always the trick and there don't seem to be that many good lyricists around these days. Wraith "People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet." -- Witold Lutoslawski

Thats an ignorant and uninformed opinion. That would be like me judging rock (even though I know you don't like rock) by two Wierd Al songs.

You obviously haven't heard one bit of the kind of rap that Albert and I listen to. And even if you decided to, you obviously have some kind of block in your head thats preventing you from making even a slightly unbiased opinion.

And how many rap songs have you actually listened to? I would guess not many. How much reasearch have you done about its origins and its and its founding artists? I would guess not much there either. See this is the problem. Thats like me saying all classical music is boring after to listening to 5 minutes of beethoven peice.

quote: "People whose sensibility is destroyed by music in trains, airports, lifts, cannot concentrate on a Beethoven Quartet."

How true, and how fitting it is for you. You obviously have concentrated one bit of effort into even trying to understand rap.

I suggest you take that block of wood out from between your ears and stop making such dismissive and uninformed opinions... and then try pass it off as "cultured".

	28-12-2002 00:05									#60
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

--"it's interesting because it's something odd..."

Bah. You have obviously not been exposed to the realm of anime theme songs if you think that one is odd. It's got absolutely nothing on "Watashi no Tamagoyaki" ("My Omlette").

--"That would be like me judging rock (even though I know you don't like rock)"

See, you're already making assumptions here, and you started off incorrectly. I don't mind rock at all, I just think most mainstream stuff these days is extremely derivative (I believe you've said much the same thing). Doesn't mean there aren't good rock songs, just that the only ones you'll find on the radio won't be recent ones.

--"You obviously haven't heard one bit of the kind of rap that Albert and I listen to."

Here's where you're correct. I've been considering seeing if I could sample some of the ones mentioned, however. Finding people with those kind of CDs around here isn't easy, though.

--"How much reasearch have you done about its origins and its and its founding artists?"

What does this have to do with anything? The quality of the founding artists has nothing to do with the quality of the music made today, nor do its origins mean much of anything after being processed by a RIAA studio.

--"I suggest you take that block of wood out from between your ears and stop making such dismissive and uninformed opinions... and then try pass it off as "cultured"."

Like your entire post, you mean?

Look, don't attempt to insult me just because I don't like a style of music. I'm not particularly into any kind of music. I don't spend a lot of time hunting down any style. Mainstream rap sucks rocks, and that's all there is to that. There probably are some decent indie artists out there, but I have more important things to do than go looking for them.
When I see suggestions of good artists, like in this thread, I do tend to check them out when I can, but it's never a top priority. And when people come off like you just did, I tend to conclude that they're just being pretentious, probably don't have any taste, and not bother at all. Rap is as much a fad with some crowds as Brittney Spears is with others, and I don't really give a damn about following fads.

Wraith
No one can think more highly of your understanding than I do. In my opinion, nature has given you so much that you never find it necessary to use more than half.