27-12-2002 12:16									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well said Garlic.

	27-12-2002 12:21									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Wow, very good question!

CapitaGarlic, so .. when computer science takes on to the next leve and AI is getting more impressive.. would you say they have a soul? Let's say we build a robot with great AI, it's able to learn, able to reflect itself with the other world.. they know what they are, they know what humans are, and have knowledge about their differencies. Everything has been programmed... and they'd be able to learn too, and because of few bugs, they'd make some mistakes too. Would you consider this thing has a soul? What makes it different from clone? We can slap some living tissue to it also.

	27-12-2002 12:37									#33
	Got spare money?

A clone is a duplicate of something that already has a soul...so naturally it has a soul too.

As for AI having soul, it depends on your definition. If the AI is somehow sentient, it may have a soul...

	27-12-2002 12:40									#34
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Being a living being, a clone definitely has a soul. Not the same soul as the template obviously, but it definitely has one.

	27-12-2002 12:41									#35
	Remove this text

The ability to learn and make mistakes is one thing. To be truly aware of one's surroundings, however...

If, sometime in the future, and AI was developed that was truly an independent intelligence, that could learn, see, hear, interact, make mistakes, but most importantly feel, to be able to know what is going on, and to know of it's own existance, then perhaps. If it had true emotions, and made real judgements, instead of something pre-programmed, then it just might. If an AI with those capabilities is created, it could just as easliy be said that it was born. If two were created, the same thing would happen, in that they would develop differently and become seperate, individual entities.

Then there's the 'it can't have a soul because it's a machine and isn't alive' argument. Perhaps true as well, but what if by this time in science (hooray for the future) it's possible to remove someone's brain and replace it in an artificial body, with all of the same capabilities sans the weakness and expiration date? Then the person (or their remains) would be no different from a true AI, only their main processing unit would be a bit softer.

	27-12-2002 13:25									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Sava A clone is just like any other human being, it's just grown as a copy of one. It will grow up with its own unique experiences. It's just like an identical twin. Of course it has a soul. I'm sick of these jesus freaks saying crap like, "God only gives souls to natural birth children... yadda yadda"

I would agree.

However, not all Jesus fr33ks say crap, and more precisely crap like that. Some of us actually have brains, ya know.




Who am I kidding, I don't have a brain

	27-12-2002 13:30									#37
	Tired of ads?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=72158

	27-12-2002 17:01									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes, you have a thread on clones. Mine was created first.

	27-12-2002 19:03									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

clones even though would have the exact dna would not be carbon copies except in the sence that identical twins are alike.... but still not alike.
and new babies like clones and twins would each have their own soul or spirit....
now another question ,if you believe in souls, is when does it enters the body...is it at conception or birth?
and in the clone case.... what is birth?


ahh i see above that another says the same thing...
too late with the thought.....lol

	27-12-2002 21:29									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Switch: I classify "jesus freaks" as people who disagree with logical, obvious things... not all Christians are jesus freaks BTW...

	27-12-2002 22:17									#41
	Suffering from ads?

Everybody, even clones, have a consciousness, that's all we have... A soul, depends on what it is (if you mean it in a christian way or so, then I at least don't have a soul )


strange question red jon!

	27-12-2002 22:26									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

There is no such thing as soul, so clones can't possess it. That's my opinion.
If I'd generally accept the concept of "soul", clones would definitely have one. Clones are nothing different than real twins, just that they aren't born at the same time. They're human and no golems, so they'd possess a soul.

	27-12-2002 23:19									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Asher A clone is a duplicate of something that already has a soul...so naturally it has a soul too. As for AI having soul, it depends on your definition. If the AI is somehow sentient, it may have a soul...

Then you have to define 'sentient'.

Clones would be as likely to have souls as the rest of us.

	03-01-2003 18:13									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Trajanus- in a Christian sense you do have a soul. The question is whether you believe this or not.

As for clones having a soul, I just have one question for Capitan Garlic, sort of on the lines of Boann's question- when does a person become ensouled? I don't think anyone has touched on this yet. Is a person ensouled when they become a person, or is this an independent procedure?

I don't know much about this at all.

	03-01-2003 20:34									#45
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

GOd only has so many souls to give. Unfortunately, not everyone can have one. Fortunately, those that don't get one are aborted anyway.

	03-01-2003 21:04									#46
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see why they wouldn't... its like a twin... except conceived and born later. I seem to recall hearing that in the middle ages people having a lot of fear of twins because they supposedly did not have souls.

	03-01-2003 21:05									#47
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by DaShi GOd only has so many souls to give. Unfortunately, not everyone can have one. Fortunately, those that don't get one are aborted anyway.

Where the hell did you hear this?

	03-01-2003 21:14									#48
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

A clone has the same genetic template as the person they are based on. That's all. It's basically an identical twin created years after the original is born.

Do natural identical twins have the same soul, or does one not have a soul?

	03-01-2003 21:19									#49
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda Where the hell did you hear this?

God told me about a month ago during lunch.

	03-01-2003 23:04									#50
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Pekka Wow, very good question! CapitaGarlic, so .. when computer science takes on to the next leve and AI is getting more impressive.. would you say they have a soul? Let's say we build a robot with great AI, it's able to learn, able to reflect itself with the other world.. they know what they are, they know what humans are, and have knowledge about their differencies. Everything has been programmed... and they'd be able to learn too, and because of few bugs, they'd make some mistakes too. Would you consider this thing has a soul? What makes it different from clone? We can slap some living tissue to it also.

the word soul can be taken to a non-spiritual sense, as garlic is saying.

i equate soul with sentience, and if machines could think, they'd have a "soul".

i've taken several classes on this topc

	03-01-2003 23:47									#51
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Datajack Franit May I have one? Even a brainless one would be pretty useful

How would that be any different than the original?

	03-01-2003 23:53									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov How would that be any different than the original?

hey, where have to been homo?

	03-01-2003 23:56									#53
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX hey, where have to been homo?

On vacation, breeder. And my posting will likely be curtailed anyway.

But I had to make my entrance with an insult to somebody, so this presented a good if belated opportunity.

	04-01-2003 01:39									#54
	Remove this text

Why add confusion? If you

quote: i equate soul with sentience

then why use the useless word soul at all? Let the religious people have it.
Only cell phones have souls, not people.
I voted for "I just wish the kids hadn't put a 'Suppository' label on that banana. "
btw

quote: i've taken several classes on this topc

Uhhuh?

	04-01-2003 01:58									#55
	Put an end to popups!

Non-cloned humans don't have souls, so why should cloned humans have souls

	04-01-2003 02:48									#56
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Non-cloned humans don't have souls, so why should cloned humans have souls

I don't believe in "souls".

	04-01-2003 03:38									#57
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis Uhhuh?

theres cognative science "minds and machines" classes @ my uni

	04-01-2003 13:16									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

just to reiterate. And another poster also suggested this.

The current technique of creating clones really is the same thing as having a delayed identical twin. So unless you say twins don't have souls, you can't say clones don't have souls.

	05-01-2003 05:44									#59
	Inflate your Upload Space

"God told me about a month ago during lunch."

Which one Dai Shi?