28-12-2002 04:25									#31
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Theseus So we lose, what, 6 food and 3 trade? Whereas we pick up an extra 6 trade from settling the gold tile earlier.

Well, under despotism, we would lose 3 food and 2 trade, I think, if we irrigate the desert. Later on it becomes more. But my point is that we don't really need the river for a pump, we can have the same kind of production if we mine the desert, and use the floodplains for food. I would consider having the river crucial if we are going to use the city as a wondercity, but it seems there are better sites for that.

What about leaving the site #1 position as it is, and move the site #13 NE as Nathan suggested, using that one for our settler?

DeepO

	28-12-2002 07:18									#32
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Just catching up with the new developments in Gathering Storm...

1. Settler, yay! Now we have an extra unit with which to explore the North. Sweet...

2. Pyramids. This will blow our GA: do we care? Also, other teams may be building an early Wonder: which ones will they get off the cascade if we finish the Pyramids first, and which one should we plan to switch to if we lost the Pyramids (we could very well be out-produced...)?

3. REXing. I again vote for crazy REX until we meet another civ. We should not be afraid of Barbarians, at this difficulty level, so there's no reason to stop expanding. Faster cities is always better than infrastructure and units, when no opponents are around.

4. Research. I believe the best next step is to beeline for a new government.


Dominae


P.S: Just kidding about point 1, although I'm itching to do something as a Tactician...

	28-12-2002 08:27									#33
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My idea was that 13 should be SE of where it was originally proposed (i.e. in the desert), not NE.

I don't like the gold tile as a top priority because a flood plains and a hill just add up to two mined regular grasslands. The gold bonus would be nice, but I view other things (food and production) as higher priorities. I'd like to get at least 3 and 13, and probably 4 and maybe 2 (depending on what we want to do with our furs), going first.

Unless we go for the Pyramids or meet a potentially hostile neighbor first, I want to make Pottery our second research priority. Given the space and the peace to do it, a granary-powered REX strategy can be extremely powerful. And Pottery is very cheap as techs go (half the cost of The Wheel and two thirds the cost of Bronze Working).

Oh, one interesting thought on blowing our GA early: once we blow it, we have no pressure to hold back our War Chariots. I'm still considering the merits and demerits of the possibility, but it's a factor worth considering.

Nathan

	28-12-2002 08:51									#34
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Sorry about the mixup, I wanted to say move #13 SE... somehow I always mix North and South when I'm not paying attention (or when, like it is now, nearly 5 am).

So far, I have yet to see the first one saying that #3 shouldn't be the first choice for our settler, so at least that's decided. Where our gift goes to is still something else, and we should decide it quickly. If we would agree on going for the pyramids, site #2 seems best, otherwise I tend to agree on #13 or #1(moved to the river or not).

As to the GA: indeed, having our WCs free is another bonus, but I think having the pyramids should be better anyway. It's like having half a GA, but not for 20 turns, but as long as settlers and workers need to be built, and even slightly after the expansion phase. I think that in the end it will be a better choice, certainly because we are kind of isolated. If we set everything to the pyramids, I would even risk it without researching pottery: if we really need it we could add workers into the wondercity for faster growth (expensive, but most good in the long term). That should make it possible to have it in something like 40 turns, which we would more or less spend on building granaries anyway. But of course, it is a risk, if we want to play it safely, we can both research pottery and build the pyramids.

DeepO

	28-12-2002 08:52									#35
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Settler

* asleepathewheel meekly thinks that it would be more prudent to build the lighthouse than the pyramids, in case of island isolation.

	28-12-2002 09:01									#36
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Asleep, there are a few problems with going for the GL... first of all, we can build the pyramids now, while we're far from mapmaking. Second, it is not proven yet that we are alone. Thirdly, if we were alone, it isn't likely that we will be the first to research mapmaking (due to tech trading). But most importantly: why would we stop when we have the pyramids, we could easily use the wondercity for another wonder(e.g. the GL) afterwards

DeepO

	28-12-2002 09:17									#37
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO Asleep, there are a few problems with going for the GL... first of all, we can build the pyramids now, while we're far from mapmaking. Second, it is not proven yet that we are alone. Thirdly, if we were alone, it isn't likely that we will be the first to research mapmaking (due to tech trading). But most importantly: why would we stop when we have the pyramids, we could easily use the wondercity for another wonder(e.g. the GL) afterwards DeepO

To address your issues raised:

issue 1, pyramids now. I would say calculate a prebuild to correspond to when the GL arrives.

issue 2: Does it really matter if we are alone or not? We would know before either of the wonders are built, correct? so if in 10 turns we are not alone, we can adjust accordingly. I don't see a need to speculate at this point as we are flexible.

issue 3: I would wager that only the isolated civs would bother getting the GL, as it has less utility at this stage of the game if they have nearby opponents. They could trade, but even if they did, would they blow that much production on it? I sure as hell wouldn't. I would focus on wonders that could aid the homeland and hinder the neaby foe.

issue 4: I doubt we can successfully build both, as if we build one, another civ is likely to switch over to the other and on down the line of wonders.


I just think that the lighthouse is more important for us, especially if we are on an island. How else do you propose to get off it? Sure, suicide galley runs are great, but not good for invasions.

From my own MP experience: once I was on the southern continent, my foe on the northern. Separated by only sea (or crossable oceans). I built the lighthouse while he was building the ?oracle? (why, i have no clue). I could attack him with impunity, his response (weak) was swallowed by the sea.

I'm not necessarily advocating against the pyramids, I'm just calling for more flexibility in our planning.

	28-12-2002 09:29									#38
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From a pure Wonder-denial standpoint, I would much rather go for the GL than the Pyramids. And, given our Food-intense terrain (relatively speaking), I think the GL would serve us better than the Pyramids. So, why not the GL instead?


Dominae

	28-12-2002 09:39									#39
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It may be possible to get both.

	28-12-2002 10:45									#40
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True. However, we need to expect Legoland to go for an early Wonder. Whichever we get first, they'll probably snap up the other before we can. So, I still believe we should discuss which one we want more.


Dominae

	28-12-2002 12:14									#41
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Keep in mind that the majority of candidates to build the Pyramids would not be capable of switching to the Great Lighthouse. Having a city be both near-optimal for the Pyramids and eligible for the Lighthouse is the exception rather than the rule. So the risk that if we get the Pyramids, someone else would cascade to the Great Lighthouse may not be all that great. (The Great Library is a much more dangerous possible cascade, but if we can get the Pyramids early enough, we might be able to short circuit that before rivals for the Pyramids get Literature.)

Someone really needs to game out how the timing for researching Alphabet, then Writing, and then Map Making would compare with the time to build the Pyramids. If, as I suspect, the research time is the main bottleneck, building the Pyramids first might cost little or no time. Also keep in mind that we'd be building the Great Lighthouse in a golden age where every tile in "2" has two production, and the city would have a granary to help it grow during the build. That would improve the prospects for successfully grabbing back-to-back wonders a little. It really depends on how long it would be between the time we finish the Pyramids and the time we get Map Making.

Of course if a commercial civ wants one of them badly enough, a race for the Great Library or Great Lighthouse is most likely lost before it starts. We'd need a pretty big income advantage to make up for the fact that they start with Alphabet (and spending so long on The Wheel hasn't helped our situation in that regard). And a civ that can trade to a commercial civ for Alphabet early could get a similar jump on us.

Nathan

	28-12-2002 16:31									#42
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Cascading wonders certainly would be a problem, but the whole issue is that we need to be first, period. If we would risk a lot, and focus exclusively on the pyramids, I doubt anyone can catch us. As said, if we wouldn't get it, we still have some options, and I agree that if we would find we are on an island, we can still switch later on (depending on what we are researching, we should decide now if we would be going for mapmaking fast, or rather take the detour around BW).

If we would be going for it, I would use our proposed 2nd settler build in EotS changes to 2 workers, one for improving the terrain around #2, the other one to boost its population (possibly even both of them for a population boost). I can't imagine anyone, even the legos, wanting to hamper it's early expansion so much, they should already be building the pyramids now if they want to be first.

I'm a big fan of the two GLs, the lighthouse when we're on an island (and even if we are on a longish continent it has its uses), and the library in all cases. I can imagine that we are going to lose the library to e.g. Lux or the legos, in which case the pyramids will make sure we're able to catch up. If possible, I would set another city aside for the library, or another ancient wonder, as I can't imagine we start on it after the pyramids, and still be able to get it. The lighthouse I don't fear that much: there are very few people who would focus on it if they are not in a position where they need it, so the only ones going for it is after a cascade of a failed Colossus. Not a big risk, I think.

I agree, someone shoud game it out, and see how all it fits together, sadly I don't have a lot of time today. Maybe tomorrow, if my agenda doesn't fill up by that time.

DeepO

	28-12-2002 18:24									#43
	Got spare money?

Wow, i miss a day and a half and all these exciting things happpen when i'm gone... (Should i leave more often? )

Well, i havn't checked the city placement thread yet, but i will now. Amyway, i trust you guys to make the best decision. In the meantime have to deal with Panzer32 'eagerness' for us to close deals prior to our in game meeting...

	28-12-2002 18:58									#44
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Yeah, it was a productive day, yesterday. Don't worry, there aren't too many decisions final, so you should have your say in all of this...

DeepO

	29-12-2002 00:35									#45
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The Great Lighthouse as a possible second Wonder is realistic, because players (typically) do not prioritize it (unless, of course, some other team is on an island). The chances of "short-circuiting" a pre-build by completing the Pyramids quickly is quite unlikely. If a team decides they want the Great Library, they'll make sure they get the techs (from othe teams). Our start is nice (especially the extra Settler), but we must assume that the other teams are well off too (and not stupid); in other words, their chances of getting Wonders is just as good as ours. Thus, I still believe we should discuss which Wonder we want more: Great Library or Pyramids.


Dominae

	29-12-2002 01:32									#46
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True, if we go for the pyramids, I don't think we will get the library. However, even if the rest is not stupid, I still think we have the best chance of building the pyramids first, if we are willing to join some workers or a settler into city #2. Other teams simply don't have the extra resources to do this...

DeepO