29-12-2002 17:10									#31
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The cities make National citizens for free. Who cares how many slaves it takes if they are all free?

	29-12-2002 17:15									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb The cities make National citizens for free. Who cares how many slaves it takes if they are all free?

Yes, but they make national citizens slowly. Having new citizens immediately would be a real boost to our economy, and would completely finish our rise to hegemony. If not, it would be pointless to integrate workers at all (we could disband national workers instead)

	29-12-2002 18:23									#33
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Spiffor, I see what you're saying now, and you've convinced me. I think, however, we should limit integration of slaves to cities that haven't been taken from the AI, so that we take an unnecessary risk of culture flipping.

	29-12-2002 19:21									#34
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Skywalker :
You are absolutely right : we should integrate slaves in cities which are risk-free from culture flipping. I'd advise not to integrate slaves in any border city, except those which are very strong culturally. I'll also never integrate a slave in a city near his origin country (for example, I'll never integrate Greek slaves in Macross City)

	29-12-2002 21:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Inefficient? How is a worker who costs nothing inefficient? Please explain.

hi ,

he works slower , so more movements are needed ; that is a waste

and if we would have a little bit of monet management we could build more banks that would bring us more money , and this can be done relatively easy by having the slaves join our cities , we can always draft them or make workers out of them when needed , .....

a bigger city shall not only build faster but shall also give us more tax and more science , so its a win-win situation , we can easily have two or even three payed workers for each slave that we can let join the cities , and they shall work faster so we dont need so many of them , ......

so we should let them join !

have a nice day

	29-12-2002 21:59									#36
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First of all, allow me to point out that a worker, slave or domestic, is more efficient in the fields than inside a city, as long as there's work to be done. You must agree that a worker would do more good to improve the terrain, which pays up in the longer run, rather than enter cities.
Having said that, I'm sure that all who agree with the above statement must also agree that we should not integrate any domestic workers or slaves into our cities before we're done with all of our public works. It's best to finish the PWs as fast as possible with as many workers as possible than to release some of them into the cities and slow down the work, right?
Now, pay attention to this: we've still got some work to do until the current Apolytonian lands are fully improved up to the greatest extent possible within the game. Afterwards, we've got the German lands to improve, and if you've taken a look at Germany you'd surely realize that there's A LOT of work to do - the German field infrastructure is heavily lacking!!
Once we're done with that, which might be in a month or even two from now, we'd have no further need for workers other than to clear pollution, improve any newly-conquered lands and do occasional jobs for the SMC. For that, we can make do with our slaves!
We won't need all those fast domestic workers to clear up pollution and to improve new lands (such as England, which we'll probably begin to annex in two months).
We've got about 70 slaves at the moment. Let's assume that by the time all the works are done, we'll have 90 slaves (we get one slave per every German city that we conquer, and we'll eventually capture their workers too). 90 slaves equal to 45 domestic workers in their speed of work, which will make do for our little needs past that point!
When the day that I speak of comes, we'll be able to integrate all of our domestic workers and even some of our slaves into the cities without worrying about the speed of work, because the slaves that we'll have left will be perfectly sufficient for clearing pollution and improving occasional new terrain. We'll then have a nice and completely free work force.

	29-12-2002 22:01									#37
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Panag - the slave is free, so it will ALWAYS be more cost-efficient than the worker. You fail to see that.

What Spiffor is saying, though, is that OVERALL PRODUCTIVITY will be enhanced if we integrate slaves first. He is correct on that point.

One thing to note, Spiffer, though, is that foreigners of ANY civ will increase the chance of culture flip, not just of the civ nearby.

	29-12-2002 22:10									#38
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Panag - the slave is free, so it will ALWAYS be more cost-efficient than the worker. You fail to see that. What Spiffor is saying, though, is that OVERALL PRODUCTIVITY will be enhanced if we integrate slaves first. He is correct on that point. One thing to note, Spiffer, though, is that foreigners of ANY civ will increase the chance of culture flip, not just of the civ nearby.

hi ,

free but slow , and costing us more money because we have extra work moving them and extra loses because they work so slow , while in a city the shall have a tile , a tile that brings us money and science and shields , .....

its more intresting to work with payed labor and let the others join us or sell them , ....

have a nice day

	29-12-2002 22:13									#39
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Panag, a stack of two slaves moves as quickly and works as quickly as a single native, but costs nothing. Therefore, AS WORKERS, slaves are more cost-effective. THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE ANYMORE.

	29-12-2002 22:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Panag, a stack of two slaves moves as quickly and works as quickly as a single native, but costs nothing. Therefore, AS WORKERS, slaves are more cost-effective. THAT'S NOT AN ISSUE ANYMORE.

hi ,

and if one of those slaves would work a tile in a city he would produce some shields , and would give us at least two-three gold a turn , not to mention about the science we would get from it , ......

slaves are bad for us , and as you have said yourself , two work like of of us , thats each time two moves instead of on , ......

so instead of having only 100 moves we need 200 moves , one 100 extra just because we keep slaves , .....

slaves cause nothing but trouble and make us loose a lot of money , .......

have a nice day

	30-12-2002 00:00									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Some people (Shiber specifically, but I assume other as well) believe I want to integrate slaves in the cities for RP reasons.

I've read some of your posts regarding the matter, which related to the RP side of slave emancipation, but I never really believed this was true. I'd never underestimate you so much that I'd think that you want to do something that many argue is detrimental to our economy just for RP reasons, and I apologize if anything I've said implies that I do.

	30-12-2002 00:37									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber I've read some of your posts regarding the matter, which related to the RP side of slave emancipation, but I never really believed this was true. I'd never underestimate you so much that I'd think that you want to do something that many argue is detrimental to our economy just for RP reasons, and I apologize if anything I've said implies that I do.

No problem Shiber I talked about you because you mentioned this at the beginning of the slavery argument, but I don't consider you were underestimating me. At the time, the debate was so heavily influenced by RP that one could consider RP was the only reason in favor of abolitionism. IMHO, it was a misunderstanding, which I tried to correct in this here thread.

But I don't completely reject the idea of including RP in the game in the future : it depends on us as a team : as there are less and less challenges to answer, maybe the senate will want to integrate "ethics" and such in the actual game. I will comply to whatever the senate decides (I'll never implement RP in the game on my own)

	30-12-2002 01:26									#43
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That's good to hear.
Any comments on my previous post (the one that I posted before the one that you quoted).

	30-12-2002 02:01									#44
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Panag, that's what Shiber's been saying all along, and what I AGREED WITH.

	30-12-2002 02:44									#45
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Panag, that's what Shiber's been saying all along, and what I AGREED WITH.

hi ,

he has been saying a great deal of things , would you please specify as to what you mean

have a nice day

	30-12-2002 02:46									#46
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Well, i always thought we should free the slave (RP reasoning) and now, thanks to Spiffor articulate explanation i realize we should do it GAME-wise.

Shiber- even if we act based on your plan (improving all of germany before integrating workers into cities- which i think isn't that important, as german lands will develop very slowly, and improving them instead of joining our developed lands will be a waste), than by the time we finish rebuilding germany's infrastructure, we still havn't finished filling our cities, and after deducting that number of worker we need for pollution control, we probably won't fill our cities yet. So, the obvious conclusion is that integrating slaves first, after making sure german lands have adequate infrastructure, and workers to keep developding it (we don't need to keep much- it's development will be slow). I think many are still suffer from the trauma of our early jungle cutting, which belongs to the past- we are an industrious democracy that has replaceble parts technology- our workers work like devils, we don't need that many.
Listen to our elected DM: a combo of 2 ex-slaves working in our fully developed city tiles, and 1 native on the open are better than a team of 1 native in the city tiles and 2 slaves in the open.

But, i guess will have to raise another bill to fix this one.

	30-12-2002 03:09									#47
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We don't have that many more slaves than natives, so we SHOULD have enough native workers to raise our pop by the amount we want. 70 slaves will be good enough for just cleaning pollution, right?

	30-12-2002 03:55									#48
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker We don't have that many more slaves than natives, so we SHOULD have enough native workers to raise our pop by the amount we want. 70 slaves will be good enough for just cleaning pollution, right?

hi ,

and the same job can be done with 35 locals , .......



and at the mean time we shall get more shields , money and science from the foreigners moving into our great cities , .....

have a nice day

	30-12-2002 06:54									#49
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No, because after 20 pop points more pop points are worthless.

	30-12-2002 08:35									#50
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker No, because after 20 pop points more pop points are worthless.

hi ,

well you must know what happens if you pop them after 20 , ...... in most cases its still good , ..... but that is not something we have to worry about , most of our cities are far away from being size twenty , .....

have a nice day

	30-12-2002 09:15									#51
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Skywalker :
We have 153 workers total (nationals + slaves). The gap between current pop and max. pop will be more than 300 people, and increasing as we build new cities on German lands. Hence we will not have enough workers (both nationals and slaves) to raise pop by the amount we want, except if we do nothing for a century after hospitals are built.

To be precise, we have :
87 nationals
66 slaves

	30-12-2002 12:33									#52
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So, we add 1 Native to each city, as soon as it gets to 13, then after the Granery had filled and it's jumped to 15, we add 1 Slave, too. THat should get us started to high pops and still have a fair Worker Base.

E_T

	30-12-2002 18:59									#53
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How many cities do we have?

	30-12-2002 23:06									#54
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FREEDOM.

OK. it is RP, but so what. We have this game won already, so just go with it.

	31-12-2002 21:42									#55
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hi ,

we should let one slave join each city , ones they carry passports of our great nation , we let an other one join

what shall be a tremendous luck for us is when we get to genetics ,we need both the cure for cancer and longevity , not only shall our cities grow with two then , but it shall be a lot easier to let a foreigner join (!)

have a nice day

	01-01-2003 00:07									#56
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Except that by then, the game will be practically over, not to mention that our cities will be at size 20 anyways.

Thank god the Great Banana that YES won.

EDIT: I give up. How do you make text strikethrough (i.e. with a line through it)?

Last edited by Kuciwalker on 01-01-2003 at 01:00

	01-01-2003 00:32									#57
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< s > and < / s >
Without the spaces, like this
You can see any exotic code someone uses if you click on Reply with quote

	01-01-2003 00:38									#58
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Except that by then, the game will be practically over, not to mention that our cities will be at size 20 anyways. Thank [strike]god[/strike] the Great Banana that YES won. EDIT: I give up. How do you make text strikethrough (i.e. with a line through it)?

hi ,

we should let one join in each city now , with more later , the thirty slaves shall work on thirty tiles , ......

as for the game to be over or not , it could be , but it could not be , ......

have a nice day

	01-01-2003 00:41									#59
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Decided by one vote... wow...

Since Spiff swung some people around to his POV, I'm considering posting a counter-bill. How many YES voters have changed their minds?

	01-01-2003 00:51									#60
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Kloreep : I didn't read the constitution in more than 6 weeks... What is the delay to propose a counter-bill ?