28-12-2002 01:30									#1
	Senate Bill: Forbidding the assimilation of foreign workers Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This senate bill forbids the assimilation of foreign workers into our cities until all native workers have been assimilated. This poll will run for 72 hrs.
Aggie

	28-12-2002 01:33									#2
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All rp aside it is silly to remove free workers until all the paid workers have rejoined out great nation.
Aggie

	28-12-2002 01:43									#3
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hmm this is a quandery.. Emancipation for the Slaves or a slave only workforce? We will A:LWAYS need 5-10 workers for minor tweaking and polution control. Especially once populations reach 16+

Mss

	28-12-2002 02:11									#4
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Free the slaves, our own workers are much faster.

	28-12-2002 03:03									#5
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I agree with Aggie on this. As former DM, the assimilation of the Free Workers before the Paid ones are assimilated is just plain silly.

If we want our Economy to properly thrive, then this is the only answer.

And the newly annex cities should get Natives above all else.

E_T

	28-12-2002 03:05									#6
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RP aside, before you vote one way or another, downlead the save and LOOK at it (it won't kill you). See way we really only need the Slaves (and a few Natives) in just a few turns.

E_T

	28-12-2002 03:48									#7
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quote: Originally posted by jdjdjd Free the slaves, our own workers are much faster.

jdjdjd, you are ignoring so many factors in making this statement that it just irritates me.
Yes, workers are faster than slaves. Twice as fast in fact. However, two slaves working on the same improvement work as fast as a single worker doing the same thing, but the difference is that they don't cost us maintenance.
So to put it straight, 2 slaves = 1 native worker - upkeep cost. Slaves are better than workers, and I just don't see much room for discussion here since the facts speak for themselves.

Now let's not let RP meddle with the game!

	28-12-2002 05:17									#8
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Shiber - some people may disagree with that sentiment

*sigh*

manually add +1 to YES

	28-12-2002 05:32									#9
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Skywalker: naturally, I always represent my own opinion unless stated otherwise. I'm sorry however if I wasn't clear enough.
jdjdjd: no offense meant in the previous post, I was just somewhat irritated by your statement, which IMHO was senseless and misleading.

	28-12-2002 08:17									#10
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Ahh but this is not a discussion about whether it is RIGHT to assimilate all natives before foreigners.

No this is a _senate bill_ forcing what appears to be common sense.

Would you like a bill which states "If an attack is possible against a waring rival where all possibility results are good, then it must be attempted."? There's nothing wrong with it, except that it's stupid.

And I see this as no different. Don't turn common sense into law.

	28-12-2002 08:54									#11
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The problem Epistax is this, the DM has said he wants to start integrating slaves into cities already so yes it is common sense to me and you, but some people don't see it as such.
Aggie

	28-12-2002 09:34									#12
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This bill is, in essence, a vote in favor of perpetually maintaining slavery. Those voting in favor are thus, morally and ethically culpable for being pro-slavery



The beautiful thing about senate bills is that this one can always be counter-manded later on by another one.

	28-12-2002 09:36									#13
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Yes!

Having 2 slaves who cost nothing a turn is better than having 1 worker of our own nationality that costs 1 gold a turn, even though they can do things in the same amount of time.

All of those free foreign workers add up to a lot of saved gold.

	28-12-2002 10:12									#14
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Free the slaves last! When we have developed animals to clear our pollution.

	28-12-2002 15:54									#15
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Funniest post in a while.

	28-12-2002 17:15									#16
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Equality before the law! Free the slaves first!

	28-12-2002 22:41									#17
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Eh, think about our economics first. As has been said before, these foreign workers cost us nothing to maintain, that is a HUGE benefit to how many units we can support.

The ironic thing is that our own workers don't even have a choice in whether they are forced to work in the fields or not, making them slaves in exactly the same way, yet no one is raising an uproar that it is morally right to free them. In essence, we are saying that it is okay to "enslave" our own people. And enslave is a farce term in itself. They are doing public works, a highly honorable profession in our great nation. Please!

	28-12-2002 22:54									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aggie The problem Epistax is this, the DM has said he wants to start integrating slaves into cities already so yes it is common sense to me and you, but some people don't see it as such. Aggie

I'd like to explain my orders on the issue. E_T requested that I send 5 native workers to Howitzerville to put it in WLAD. I didn't intend to integrate any worker now, but there is a military need for it right now.

I wanted to send French or American workers since they won't be more likely to revolt than our citizens, while they work twice as slow (and we still need as much workforce as we can for several turns).

I have been pointed to the culture flipping formula, which uses the inprecise "foreign citizens" label. This label might mean only citizens from the threatening culture, OR might mean all foreign citizens. Out of prudence, I changed my orders to integrate native workers.

I do not intend to integrate any workers until all PW is done (in 4-5 turns), and I'll follow the results of the polls on whether I'll integrate natives or slaves first.

	28-12-2002 22:57									#19
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Aidun - how will we have equality if we free the slaves FIRST. That implies that there are some people we aren't freeing. Therefore, we must not have equality

THE SLAVES WERE MADE TO SERVE US!

	29-12-2002 00:06									#20
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I meant to do that first before integrating our own workforce in our cities. It's just the way you read it.

NO THEY WERE NOT! WE ENSLAVED THEM BECAUSE WE WERE MADE TO BE ABLE TO ENSLAVE THEM!

Aidun

	29-12-2002 00:23									#21
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You do not understand the subtle ways in which the Great Banana works. He made us able to enslave them so that we WOULD enslave them so that they would serve us, as as they were made to do.

	29-12-2002 00:32									#22
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hi ,

we should let them join our cities , this way they shall bring us more wealth , more science , etc , .....

and our workforce should be working with monthly income of no less then one lyton an hour !

have a nice day

	29-12-2002 00:36									#23
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[notRP]Actually, they do us far more good as workers, because a pop point is just worth a pop point, whereas a worker is worth a pop point plus ten shields.d Also, pop points grow continually, while we have to BUILD workers.[/notRP]

	29-12-2002 00:47									#24
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker You do not understand the subtle ways in which the Great Banana works. He made us able to enslave them so that we WOULD enslave them so that they would serve us, as as they were made to do.

Quite complicated. Sorry, but I doubt that the Great Banana works like this. You just know very well how to formulate your phrase.

Aidun

	29-12-2002 00:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker [notRP]Actually, they do us far more good as workers, because a pop point is just worth a pop point, whereas a worker is worth a pop point plus ten shields.d Also, pop points grow continually, while we have to BUILD workers.[/notRP]

hi ,

big cities produce loads of shields , .....

let them join our cities and wait until they have joined us , then you can send them back out , in the mean time let the city they have joined grow one , make a worker out of it

it shall bring us more money in the long run , more science , and why not pay some workers if in return they work faster

have a nice day

	29-12-2002 03:06									#26
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Yes, but we'll have big cities ANYWAYS. It takes more time and resources to produce a pop point than a worker.

	29-12-2002 13:45									#27
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Some people (Shiber specifically, but I assume other as well) believe I want to integrate slaves in the cities for RP reasons. It is wrong, I always integrate slaves sooner than national in my own games (where I don't do RP at all), here is why :

1. I don't intend to integrate workers before all improvements in non German lands are completed. Most workers will remain once we only have the German lands to improve.

2. We'll have hospitals soon, meaning the population of our cities will be able to reach 20 or more. Since an extra city laborer is an excellent asset, I'll integrate as many workers as reasonable. The demographic jump will incredibly boost us.

3. We don't have too many workers. In fact, we don't have enough workers to completely fill the cities once they build hospitals. Since I want the highest possible population in our cities soon (of course, limited by unhappiness), I want the smallest number of workers in the fields. Hence, I want only the best workers in the fields : the nationals.

4. All of you pro-slavery say : "2 slaves do the same as a national but don't cost anything". It is right, but you forget something : 2 laborers in a city produce twice more than one. If we compare the efficiency of integrating 2 slaves rather than integrating one national, the former is much better. Also, these integrated slaves will produce 1 or 2 gold, and will pay (or more than pay) the national worker they replace.

5. I'd like to integrate many nationals anyways, once the time has come. It is just that the little workforce remaining should be entirely made of nationals IMO.
Of course, my decision will depend on the result of this senate bill or upcoming senate bills. But I wanted to point out this senate bill, if adopted, will be detrimental to Apolytonia's economy
Thank you for reading.


Once our cities reach maximum population, using slaves in the fields will be economically better. Until then, we have to maximize our population by letting our most inefficient workers go to the cities.
My anti-slavery position right now isn't dictated by Roleplaying. Maybe we'll want to integrate RP in the game when slavery will become clearly beneficial for Apolytonia (in the future), but right now emancipation is the most reasonable option.

	29-12-2002 14:25									#28
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Why do you want to keep workers who cost us over workers who do not?

	29-12-2002 14:27									#29
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Inefficient? How is a worker who costs nothing inefficient?

Please explain.

	29-12-2002 15:50									#30
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NYE : my post above was intended to be an explanation
But I guess it is unclear so :

- To understand my point of view, you have to consider what a slave worker brings as a worker, and what he would bring as a free laborer in a city.

- You also have to understand that our cities won't reach thir max. pop immediately when hospitals are built. We have to help our cities get bigger quickly, by integrating our workforce.

- Ideally, we should integrate all our workforce (nationals + slaves) in our cities soon. This would lead to a demographic jump, and would give us much more shields / money / science (and a definitive hegemony). However, we have to keep some workers out of the cities for pollution cleaning / improvement of conquered land.

- We need to keep as few workers as possible, to have the highest population in the cities as possible, ASAP. Again, this is in some turns, when all tiles improvements will be done, and hospitals built.

- The problem is that we don't have enough workers to completely fill the gap between the current population of our cities, and the maximal population of our cities. We'll have to make a choice regarding who remains out of cities.

- We need the highest possible population in the cities. One integrated slave is worth one integrated national, while 2 slave workers are worth 1 national worker.
Imagine we need 60 slaves for pollution cleaning et al. If we integrate only nationals, we have 60 pop wasted out of the cities. If we let nationals handle this job, we only have 30 pop wasted in the fields. In this theoretical example, integrating nationals would mean we'd have a comparative loss of 30 pop !

- In short, if we integrate slaves before nationals, we'd have twice more new city dwellers than the other way around. These extra city dwellers will sure be very useful for the greatness of Apolytonia (and they will sure bring more than the mere gpt a national worker costs)


Edit : sorry if it is still unclear, but it isn't easy to manipulate complex concepts in a foreign language :\