31-10-2000 11:01									#1
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are probes invisible???

they ignore zoc like cloaked units, but i do see other people's probes sometimes... weird...

do sensors reveal cloaked units?

i read it somewhere to keep probes in your bases to defend against enemy probes, why can't you just attack them with normal garrison units???

	31-10-2000 12:55									#2
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Nope, probes aren't invisible but they can be darn easy to overlook, especially on an area with lots of units and sloping terrain. I'm a XXX player too, which doesn't help. It isn't what you are thinking. The first thing I do when SMACing is hotkey out three times which really shrinks the size of the units down.

Of course, once you get way down the tech tree there is nothing to stop you from adding the cloaking device to your units, including probes I suppose.

On the issue of defensive probes, they are very handy because the enemy probe teams will have to defeat all your defensive probe teams before they can do anything nefarious. It is assumed that your base will also have normal defensive unit(s) to handle the coventional attacks. The probe is the very last thing to absorb an enemy attack in a base.

You could try to kill two birds with one stone by loading up a pile of armor on your defensive probe, but many regard this to be a cheat. What is not a cheat is slicing off that probe speeder chassis for a garrison chassis. Cuts down on your build cost/time but you lose some flexiblity.

	31-10-2000 19:46									#3
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Yeah, probe team graphics were designed that way, with a view to making them hard to spot. I suppose it makes sense, they are unflagged, but you can see which faction they belong to by right-clicking on them and choosing 'Info on this square'.

Armored probe teams are sooo useful, as they have the same defensive properties as normal garrison units (where is the sense in that?), can also combat probes directly, and can subvert attacking units.

	31-10-2000 19:51									#4
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No probes are not invisible, but they do not show the faction banners like other units do. So you can spot a probe, but wont know who's it is. When you conduct a probe action your get your chances fro success in two numbers. ex. (90%,60%) The first number is the chance you will sucessfully complete the mission. The second number is the chance the probe team will survive the mission. When a mission fails, sometimes the victum will be told which faction tried to probe them. This will have all sorts of consiquences to your diplomatic efforts. Since identity can not be determined by seeing a probe, you can also try and frame another faction for your actions. This will of course be a harder mission to complete, but can be worth the risk of angring two factions instead of just one.

On a similar note, while playing a Single Player game, don't use subs. The computer has to keep track of each units positions, and tells the AI factions where they are, so don't bother the extra minerals to build these.

	01-11-2000 04:43									#5
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If I recall correctly, the only way to spot a cloaked or sub unit is to attempt to move into the square. I don't think they are seen by sensors. I could be wrong though, so someone please correct me if I am.
You can attack probe teams with a conventional garrison, but most players and the AI are able to keep their teams out of visual and attack range until they strike. If you're looking to know why a garrison can't defend against probes, that's because that would totally defeat their purpose.
[This message has been edited by Kirnwaffen (edited October 31, 2000).]

	01-11-2000 10:30									#6
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Armoured probes don't quite have the same defensive properties as ordinary armoured units - they're a sort of hybrid. If they are alone, they will defend with their armour (so I'm told, I haven't actually tried this one) but if they are stacked, they will die when the last standard defender dies, just like ordinary probes.

I did do an experiment as a result of another discussion here, trying to designate an armoured probe in a base as the defender. I had a synth garrison there too. The idea was that if there were an attack and the synth garrison died, the probe would die. But if the probe defended first and lost, the ordinary synth garrison would remain.

You cannot designate armoured probes as primary defenders.

So that was the end of that

	01-11-2000 21:33									#7
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Yeah Mis,

I was the one who steered you wrong on that I beleive. My bad! But armored probes still have a purpose. Use Morgan as an example.

With poor support as his achilles heel and running FM as he is wont to do, armored probe teams are the answer for a single garrison unit. The idea here is to make a Infantry probe team and then a infantry PT with synth armor (upgraded to trance when SotHB is yours).

Infantry PT non armored is rush built and then upgraded next turn. Now you have a secured base sans support. FM means by default you have no policing ability so a regular unit is wasteful from a support perspective and useless from what otherwise would be a polciing function.

Armored PT allows the same security (and allows a counter subversion punch) with none of the support implications.

It works for all factions but is most effective for support plagued Midas.

If you choose to keep pouring out these little buggers remember to set them such that they are one per square outside your base else one lost combat and you have the ground littered with PT bodies.

Now in the later game where rover rush is likely I wouldn't for a minute advocate a single defender but for immediate base security upon base colonization it works nicely.

Og
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited November 01, 2000).]

	02-11-2000 09:57									#8
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It was a *great* idea though Ogie ... imagine if it had worked.