05-01-2003 01:12									#121
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's proven to be false.

	05-01-2003 01:16									#122
	Support Apolyton

ermmm, where is that proof?

	05-01-2003 01:27									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Ned You are assuming that Bush will attack Iraq even before the UN has a chance to vote and even if Iraq is not in material breach. That is pure propaganda.

Considering Bush has said they will atack Iraq with or without the UN and that several people in the Administration have said that failure to find anything will be considered a material breach by the US (because the US knows the Iraqis are hiding something), it's safe to asume that regardless of what happens in Iraq, the US will invade.

	05-01-2003 01:29									#124
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel ermmm, where is that proof?

it's my opinion

Well, there's no proof, but there's no proof on your statement too. that's not important anyway; it's not about if it is usefull or not. It's about that it's not moral.

	05-01-2003 01:31									#125
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Azazel the vast majority of the DP condemned are guilty. the 'witches' were not.

Witches were just as guilty, having been found guilty and condmened by due process of law. In the US, as much as a third or more of our DP cases have serious flaws and there is plenty of reasonable doubt as to whether DP convicts recieved anything close to a fair trial. A new study has also shown that slightly more than half of all confessions are false (45 out of 89 studied). Our whole justice system is massively flawed, therefore it is reasonble to suspect that the Death Penalty in America is a crime against humanity, which requires outside intervention to end.

	05-01-2003 01:33									#126
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

What are your morals based upon?

my morals are based upon having a society/government that lets the most people be as content/happy as possible for as long as possible.

	05-01-2003 01:45									#127
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Therefore, You are a fascist.

	05-01-2003 01:51									#128
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Fascism is a certain system of government, which could be moral at a certain point in the history of humanity (great cataclysm, the need to mobilize all resources for a single cause, etc.). It is not moral now, of course, because it would make people unhappy, and would be unproductive in the long run.

	05-01-2003 01:56									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I disagree. I would be happy if someone proven me that I am of the rase of masters...
OK, I'm mixing it with nazizm now...

	05-01-2003 01:57									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Witches were just as guilty, having been found guilty and condmened by due process of law.

a. not correct.
b. an highly immoral law.

quote: In the US, as much as a third or more of our DP cases have serious flaws and there is plenty of reasonable doubt as to whether DP convicts recieved anything close to a fair trial. A new study has also shown that slightly more than half of all confessions are false (45 out of 89 studied). Our whole justice system is massively flawed, therefore it is reasonble to suspect that the Death Penalty in America is a crime against humanity, which requires outside intervention to end.

I've already said that the DP is used to often in the states. My point was totally different: an otherwise moral law COULD become immoral if the amount of people that are against it would be very large, and their resistance to that law very strong.

	05-01-2003 02:09									#131
	Suffering from ads?

Heresson, debating you is like fighting a puddle of mud. no challenge, and feels weird. Che, and Ned, on the other hand, have made some interesting points.

	05-01-2003 03:04									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hah! A puddle of mud always wins.
Oh, my last one or two posts were kind of lazy ones, but it's because I can't, as well as You, prove my right here.

	05-01-2003 03:54									#133
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Heresson Therefore, You are a fascist.

Fascism has nothing to do with the happiness o the majority, but rather only the happiness of the ruling sectors of the capitalist class.

	05-01-2003 04:00									#134
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Azazel a. not correct. b. an highly immoral law.

If you are found guilty of a crime, you are guilty, whether or not you committed the crime. I know, it's circular logic, but that's what we have to deal with. Once you are convicted, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you could not have committed the crime in order to get the conviction overturned (unless there were serious legal errors).

And yes, it was a terribly immoral law, but from their point of vew they were trying to save these people's souls. We know its bs, but they fervently believed they were doing right not only by the community but also by the condemned.

quote: I've already said that the DP is used to often in the states. My point was totally different: an otherwise moral law COULD become immoral if the amount of people that are against it would be very large, and their resistance to that law very strong.

That gets into a debat over the nature of morality. Either morality is fixed, as objectivists would argue or it is fluid and changes with society, as we Marxists would argue. I might find the burning of witches and the Death Penalty in general reprehensable, but within their contexts, they are/were moral acts.

	05-01-2003 04:05									#135
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Either morality is fixed, as objectivists would argue or it is fluid and changes with society, as we Marxists would argue.

*Ahem* Not only Marxists would argue morality is fluid .

	05-01-2003 04:11									#136
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yes, but I'm not going to put words into your mouth.

	05-01-2003 06:32									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Throughout history, the death penalty was unevenly applied. The rich and powerful were never executed although they were sometimes asked to commit suicide. However the lower classes were not only executed, they were executed many times for sport.

The death penalty, in my opinion, is not justified unless it is equally applied to all citizens without regard to the class.

You will find that may death penalty sentences are overturned in the United States due to inadequate representation. This is primarily a money issue. One solution would be to provide everyone accused of a capital offense a very high budget defense. I think this is ridiculous. I would prefer simply to end the death penalty in United States because it is not working for a number of reasons, but most importantly is that it is unevenly and infrequently applied, and too much resource is put into endless appeals causing delays that amount to cruel and unusual punishment for society and the victims families.

	05-01-2003 12:23									#138
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: That gets into a debat over the nature of morality. Either morality is fixed, as objectivists would argue or it is fluid and changes with society, as we Marxists would argue. I might find the burning of witches and the Death Penalty in general reprehensable, but within their contexts, they are/were moral acts.

CONSIDERED moral, and WERE moral are two different things.

My argument is that the same act could be moral under different sircumstances, but the reason for the morality or the immorality of the same act would remain the same, because the effects of the same act under different sircumstance would vary greatly. However, I fail to see the utility of witch-burning under any sircumstances. If you have a good example, please, enlighten me.

and about he DP issue: I admit I don't know all of the sides to it in the US. But since I only brought it as an example, It really doesn't mean anything.

	06-01-2003 00:07									#139
	Support Apolyton

*bump*

	06-01-2003 15:29									#140
	Put an end to popups!

Bump

	06-01-2003 15:40									#141
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Azazel CONSIDERED moral, and WERE moral are two different things. My argument is that the same act could be moral under different sircumstances, but the reason for the morality or the immorality of the same act would remain the same, because the effects of the same act under different sircumstance would vary greatly. However, I fail to see the utility of witch-burning under any sircumstances. If you have a good example, please, enlighten me. and about he DP issue: I admit I don't know all of the sides to it in the US. But since I only brought it as an example, It really doesn't mean anything.

An act is moral if it remains justified when made universal. However, this does mean morality may be context sensitive.

For example, making love to a woman may be moral or immoral depending upon her level of consent or her marital status.

	06-01-2003 20:30									#142
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

so, basically, you agree?

	06-01-2003 22:07									#143
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Azazel so, basically, you agree?

Yes.

Killing, for example, is a problem that caused Church theologians angst for 2000 years. However, even the Church agrees that killing is at times moral - for example, in self defense or in the context of a just war.

	06-01-2003 23:19									#144
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I would like also to point out that what we call these days morals : 'human rights' , etc. are not actually sacred, but the most efficient in utilitarian terms, way to run a society.