28-10-2000 06:12									#1
	what should i build on squares? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

should i build boreholes? or what?

what is the point of forest?

oh yeah, is there a matching service for smac multiplayer? the smac head quarter is like shut down...

	28-10-2000 09:22									#2
	Remove this text

First let's address the question with the short answer. Check out the news on Apolyton's SMAC section for October 7. They have an alternative service. Now for the long, winded answer.
What you build on squares depends on lots of stuff. Here are some tips:

- Moisture: The moisture of a square is either moist, rainy, or arid. Moisture determines how many nutrients a square produces, and is represented by how green the square is. Try building farms in rainy and moist squares.

- Rockiness: The rockiness determines how many minerals a square produces. A square is either flat, rolling, or rocky. Rocky squares are your best bet for mines. Farms cannot be built on rocky squares (I'm not sure if forests can or not)

- Altitude: Altitude determines how much energy a square can produce. The higher up a square is, the more energy it produces. Build solar collectors on high ground when possible.

In general, build enhancements where they'll be most effective. Mines in rocky squares, farms in rainy squares, and solar collectors on high ground. Boreholes, enrichers, condensors, and eschelon mirrors are also great, but cause more eco damage than the others. Some things to remember about them:

- All of them take a while to build

- Eschelon mirrors do no good by themselves, they only boost the production of solar panels

- Boreholes cannot be built next to eachother, and adding a farm to a borehole square does no good whatsoever

- None of these can be built at sea

Forests, to answer your other question, have several advantages over other enhancements:

- They aren't terrain dependent

- They are eco-friendly

- Their production can be upped by building hybrid forests and tree farms

- They can help defend your base by slowing enemy rovers (minor benefit)

- They spread spontaneously

Build forests on arid, flat squares, where other enhancements have minimum effect.

Sea squares: On sea squares, you can build kelp farms, tidal harnesses, or mining platforms. Basically, build what you feel you need here, since there is no benefit or loss due to terrain.

Special squares: Certain special terrains enhance production of a specific resource. Use these squares to help boost your production of that resource.

In general, you have to decide the what enhancements suit your situation. Hope this helps.

	28-10-2000 19:00									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

To emphasize, forests are terraforming that grows. So you don't have to do all the work yourself. Kelp farms do something similar at sea.
Both are heavy advantages, if used, especially early in the game.
You should be aware that forests will not grow in rocky squares, kelp farms will not grow in water deeper than ocean shelf.

	28-10-2000 19:22									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The main advantage of using forests is they are durable, cheap to build and reasonably productive.

Consider this -

If you have forests all around your base, and a Hybrid Forest erected, you will produce 3 nuts, 2 mins and 2 energy from each square. In a (say) size 10 base, that means 10 extra nuts (30-20), 20 minerals and 20 energy. Note tht this is the absolute minimum one such base can produce. This can be easily enhanced by crawlers working on boreholes, solars/echelons and the like. Also, if you are running FM, each square will produce 3-2-3, which is a massive boon, allowing you 30 energy minimum.

This is why I am such a big fan of forests. There is also the bonus of little or no eco-damage, which is one less pain in the backside. Sure, TFs and HFs are expensive, but the amount of minerals you'll be producing, you shouldn't have a problem!

But be careful about using them early in the game. Because they only produce 1 nut without a Tree Farm, they can severely hamper your initial expansion.

They also cost two to move through, and although the opponent will get a massive 50% boost vs. land attacks, this does not apply to air attacks, leaving the infantry coming through as lambs to the slaughter!

Another very useful thing you can do with terraforming are the so-called 'energy farms', in with solar collectors and echelon mirrors are interwoven, to have the effect of solar collectors producing a minimum of 5 energy each! In this way, you can send an army of crawlers over there, and bring in an obscene amount of energy every turn. Furthermore, if you raise the land to its maximum altitude, they will produce 8/turn....

If it's minerals you're after, a mine on a rocky square with a road running through will produce 4/turn, which is all you will need, as eco-damage increases dramatically after about 20 minerals....

Hope this helps!

Mark13
[This message has been edited by mark13 (edited October 28, 2000).]

	01-11-2000 10:38									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

One last thing, which is easily missed. It probably seems from the above that you only want to build tree farms and hybrid forests in bases which have a lot of forests nearby. But, because tree farms/hybrid forests both increase the productivity of forest squares and reduce eco-damage from non-forest improvements such as farms and mines, they are useful for bases which are entirely surrended by farms and solar collectors and boreholes as well as for bases surrounded by nothing but trees.

And then they have energy bonuses and psych bonuses which make them worthy of consideration even for sea bases...

	03-11-2000 03:36									#7
	Support Apolyton

"Every square outside base radii gets either a borehole, or a mine/road if rocky and can't place a borehole,"

I see this kind of thing a lot. Question: Why put bore holes outside of city radius? You would have to use a supply carrer and it can only harvest one thing at a time. If they are in the radius you get all the goodies.

	03-11-2000 04:47									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Regarding boreholes outside of city radii, my reasons are simple:

1) Pre Hybrid forest, you get 0 eco damage from a borehole outside of city radii, and lots inside.
2) Post hybrid forest, I will put boreholes inside city radii. Usually on rocky squares that aren't sloped.
3) Crawling & Boreholes: This allows you to control eco-damage precisely. Use minerals until you get to the limit for 0 eco-damage, and have the remainder crawl energy.

I'm a mineral man, not an energy man. I find I do better if I aim to produce things rather than rush them. That's just me though.

	03-11-2000 07:14									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

To be honest, I build very few boreholes, and none at all in many games - particularly SMAX. They take so long to build and I build them outside the city radius because of eco-damage anyway. Being an energy fiend, rather than a minerals type, my preference is always, always for tidal harness/thermocline/sea crawler post fusion reactors. It's easily the cheapest, fastest most cost-effective way to harvest a *lot* of energy. Which is not to say that I don't build land energy parks because I do. But not to the same extent.

	03-11-2000 19:13									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Mis:
Yep, I use that a *lot* - tidal harnesses are incredible value for what they are...

Mind you, as the pirates I tend to devote one or two sea shelves to mining platforms - after AdvEcoEng they produce 3 mins each - you only need two or three of these to make a difference.....

Also, with kelp/tidals as the Pirates, each square brings in 4/1/5 (assuming aquafarm and thermocline) - and that is a *lot* of energy.....

	03-11-2000 19:35									#12
	Support Apolyton

My latest Pirate settlement program strictly dictates that new bases can only be founded on mineral specials. Every base starts off with a mineral production of 5 (very good for a new base) and by pop 6 has the minimal number of 10/turn. Those six workers are usually working tidal harnesses, and after I work on my gross efficiency this will net me some nice income and research rates. Of course I have to spend a fortune rush building everything, but this gives me time to produce some more of those expensive supply foils.

	04-11-2000 10:14									#13
	Got spare money?

"Two reasons:
a) you don't get any nuts from borehole squares,
b) the effect of eco-damage is smaller outside the base radius. (I think)"

Interesting! I tend to go the other way. Once I get crawlers, I put as many boreholes as possible in the city radius, and then use crawlers for nuts.
The spaces in between the boreholes, I normally put a condenser and farm, and but a crawler on it for the 4+ nuts produced.

As you can see I tend to ignore eco damage. Most of the time I run about 80-300 eco damage per city.

------------------
I have no living enemies!
Tim

	04-11-2000 10:40									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

TimHobbit:

Eco-damage can be a hugely crippling factor mid/late game, when the sea levels begin to rise. This is why I tend to be very wary of it - in my last 5 SP games, the sea levels have risen only once....

But it is an interesting idea, but eco-damage, for me, would be the big equaliser - I wouldn't be prepared to subject Planet to all that damage for the sake of a few extra minerals...

On that note, does anyone put condensor/farms on nut specials? This should, if I have my maths right, give you 7 nutrients:

- Rainy square: 2
- Farm: 3
- Nut Special: 5
- Condensor (+50%, rounding down): 7

I have tried this once, and it works quite well. Of course, put a soil enricher on it to give 9 (10 in the jungle)....

	04-11-2000 10:58									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Mark13 -

For me I always "n" the nut specials. Your math looks right. My current game has one city with 3 in the radius, getting 8+ nuts each hex.

	03-11-2000 23:15									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

What is this American fascination with leaving the 's' off maths? The full version, mathematics, is plural, the shorter version should also be....

***************************

TimHobbit:
Out of interest, how do you deal with eco-damage? It would seem a necessary part of the game to at least deal with it as it comes. In civ2 all you had to do was keep 2 engineers 'on alert' to clear up any pollution the turn it appeared. In SMAC, it is somewhat trickier, as the sea levels rise regardless of whether you have cleared it up or not....

Fitz:
Yeah, I'm sorry, I didn't read the whole thread with as much attention as maybe I should.

	03-11-2000 23:25									#18
	Suffering from ads?

My thoughts on t-forming (I provide here primarily land t-forming advice, or at least how I do it, as I agree wholeheartedly that sea t-forming for energy purposes is the the most effective and easily accomplishable energy harvesting)

Early stage
Initially farm a moist square if no 2+ nutrient square available (i.e nut special, rainy, or monolith)
Forests all other squares

Paradigm Shift #1 - aquisition of WP
New bases get condensor farm on one square and forests

Note if WP is not aquired, then proceed with typical Forest/tree farm approach.

WARNING NOTE: MODERATE WORKING/CRAWLERING OF BUT ONE BOREHOLE OR 2 MINES AT FOLLOWING TWO PHASES MINIMIZE ECO DAMAGE. Mins per base is on the order of 13-18 depending on planet rating at the time and depending on whether borhole is worked.

Paradigm Shift #2 - Mineral resticition lifted
Rockies, become roaded mines. Crawlers to the mines my robot friends!

Paradigm Shift #3 - Energy restrictions lifted
Begin boreholing coastline every other square (note this is somewhat dangerous as marauding naval vessels can arty destroy your enhancement as a default it also necessitates your expansion into the sea to provide a ring of sea bases to protect your productive coast lines and yes Mis, nothing beats foil crawlers bringing in easy tidal energy) I attempt to work boreholes wherever possible but will at times have to settle for but 1 borehole per base until advent of hybrids.

I used to be a huge fan of land based energy parks but now find I would rather have the extra bases that the space would otherwise take up for purposes of extra build queues.

Paradigm shift #4 - Advent of fusion - post Hybrids

Convert most existing forest squares into condensor/farm/& ultimately soil enrichers and boreholes wherever possible. Crawler nutrients back into base and put otherwise workers into engineer role. Boreholes provide ample mins and loss of hybrid forest energy is more than recouped through better engineer energy yield as well as borehole energy. Size 16 base is supported by 5 crawlered condensor/farm/soil enrichers squares (sans nutrient specials) Normally no less than 2-3 boreholes per base which are actually worked leaving remaining squares open for crawlers to bring in mins or energy
from untouched forests.

Paradigm shift #5 - Advent of hab domes (I almost never get here as I quit long before this happens)

Convert remaining forest to condensor/farm/soil enrichers for maximum population growth (Along with scads of hydroponic farms sats.) All specialists as transcendi.

Optional tactic: Pick one central land locked base (I find it helps cut down a little on the generation of locusts) and borehole as much as possible crawler in mins etc. to create a polluter base. Build every min enhancing facility. (A nice feature of this is that when the inevitable floods come if your assets are heavily weighted to formers as mine normally are, you will be able to raise land no problem while watching the other faction drown). your base must be prepared with numerous elite trance units and numerous elite empath units. Elite trance defend against any possible missed planet attack. Elite empath units(some capable to attack locusts) rake in scads of energy from planet pearls. As the fungal sprouts and worm attacks begin one nice feature is that the boreholes still remain productive even after being swarmed under by fungus.

	03-11-2000 23:44									#19
	Put an end to popups!

mark13 -

Dealing with eco damage: Well I build lots of formers and raise land like crazy & also build pressure domes, just in case. I also, keep good trance combat troops around to eliminate the fungi blooms.

	04-11-2000 00:09									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quick question that only remotly relates to the orig topic. Can a port base gate a supply foil to a land locked base to change home status then gate it back to launch it into the sea?

I guess it really doesn't matter since gates come late in the game, and you will have missed out on a huge cache of energy, but just wondering.

	04-11-2000 00:12									#21
	Tired of ads?

VC,

Answer is yes.

Answer is also yes it almost always is too late to make a dif as well.

Og