13-02-2000 19:52									#1
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Some people say that bases should be placed on top of a special resource. Others say that it wouldn't be as efficient as placing bases next to the special resources and using workers and crawlers to collect them.
What do you think of this?

	14-02-2000 11:21									#2
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Early-game restrictions do not apply to bases or special resources; consequently to get both advantages you should not build bases directly on special resource sites.

Furthermore land-based nutrient resources are best exploited via condenser at any point in the game.

None of what I said seems to apply to sea-based nutrient specials -- you'll have Gene Splicing before you start building sea colonies -- so I guess I wouldn't have any problem theoretically with building on those.

	14-02-2000 17:42									#3
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Vi,

Excellent points on specials. To further clarify, the restrictions are lifted for particular special only. Therefore if you have an energy special it will allow energy to be recovered from the square in question above the 2 limit prior to tree farm. However for the same square, it will not allow minerals or nutrients to be recovered in excess of 2 prior to restrictions being lifted. So for example if you decided to borehole that energy special, the square would net you a 2 mineral(until mineral restrictions lifted then 6) and 8 energy resources.

Nutrient specials in ocean squares do work the same way and if kelp farm is planted will net 5 nutrients (3 for kelp and 2 for special) prior to gene splice (nutrient lifted). Actually 6 nutrients if you bother to build aquafarms. Vi perhaps you ran into the problem where the nutrient was amidst fungus and as a result didn't notice the effect.

	14-02-2000 19:33									#4
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I would add, that it also depends on other properties of the given tile. E.g.

1. I will go for farming/condensering a nut special on a rainy or at least moist square. But if the square is arid, then I put a base on top.

2. I borehole mineral or energy specials on low altitude wherever it is allowed.

3. Mineral special on slope gets mine+road if rocky, base if flat. If rolling, it depends on other factors (e.g. city arrangement around)

4. Energy special on slope gets base on low altitude solar collector on high altitude.

Of course, there are always exceptions and special circumstances, but these are my rules of thumb.

	14-02-2000 20:38									#5
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Building a base on a nutrient special early on allows you to build a high production (12 or 14) center for early SPs. Otherwise don't bother.

	16-02-2000 04:15									#6
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Thanks for the replies .

	16-02-2000 16:28									#7
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If you play with tech stagnation, and you got the WP I'd say that you could go through quite some pains to be able to borehole every single mineral and energy special.
With the special you get 8 of that resource out of a borehole. (As specials allows you to get the full amount out of a square even with restrictions still enforced.)
So, if you play with tech stagnation, or you are yang/miriam then raise/lower terrain to get that all important borehole in place.

	16-02-2000 18:54									#8
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Zsozso,

re: arid Nutrient specials. Why do you build a base on it? My usual preference in this situation would be to work it after I have forested it. Is it b/c you normally like to make a science city by removing workers from the field and making them all specialists hence the need for less crawlers bringing in food?

Just curious.

	16-02-2000 20:45									#9
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Ogie,

If you forest it, it gives you 3 nuts and 2 mins and you must work it - locking down a worker, which only feeds half of another. If you put the base on it, that will feed a full extra worker, i.e. your base now produces 4 nuts feeding 2 workers who work on borehole or rocky/mine/road or feed 4 workers working on forests. Your net mineral and energy income is equivalent OR higher with the base on top:

Your forest solution: locks down a worker who can only feed an extra forest-worker, i.e. you get 4 mins from the 2 forests and no excess nuts.

Base on top solution: the base can feed 2 extra forests giving you the same 4 mins and same energy too, OR you can choose to work a borehole with the extra worker fed giving you 6 mins + 6 energy (unless it is also a mineral or energy special).

Zsozso

	17-02-2000 04:27									#10
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Depends on faction, too. For factions that can't pop boom (Yang and Morgan), building a base on top of a nutrient bonus may be the best way to expot the resource.

FOr mineral bonus on a rocky square, always build a mine (7 mineral) or a borehole.

------------------
Creator of the Ultimate Builder Map, based on the Huge Map of Planet

	17-02-2000 06:35									#11
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Yang and Morgan can pop boom. It isn't as easy as it is for the others, but Democracy or Planned plus a high Psych rating will definitely do it.

	17-02-2000 06:48									#12
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One of the recent versions allows both to pop boom- with Golden age.
Golden Age works only for bases size 4 or greater with at least half their population talents. Combine this with a creche and
Demo for Morgan or Planned for Yang
And your base will have total +6 growth, meaning pop boom. For the pop boom to actually enlarge your population you need +2 excess nutrients being produced at that base.

Turn 1.- base converts a few workers to doctors

Turn 2.- If all criteria are met, no drones, 4+ people, and half population talents then base displays "golden age begun" message

Turn 3.- If base has a creche and the factions SE is demo or planned and the base is still in a golden age AND it is making 2 extra food then population grows by 1 point.

I forest the nutrient resources, because with a Hybrid forest thats 5-2-2, a lot better than a condenser+ Farm would produce. If you space your cities closely together then you can share this extra food, a base can use it to leap to full size, then let another base use it. Or you can use crawlers.

I build a lot of crawlers taking in minerals early on, then once that base has heavy infrastructure I switch those crawlers to food and pop boom to maximum. Then switch crawlers back to minerals.

	20-02-2000 11:05									#13
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Ogie:

I do understand the rules of the game. However, it is very rare to have sea bases before the discovery of Gene Splicing. This mitigates the rule "don't build on specials because of the restrictions" -- what are the odds you'll have sea bases before Gene Splicing? (Well, okay, there are the Pirates ...)

	21-02-2000 01:18									#14
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Vi,

Humble apologies. Didn't mean to offend and I do realize you are an accomplished player. (vis-a-vis the Morgan challenge no less)

Sea nutrient squares however can be extremely useful inearly game for the coastal cities on your home continent. Send out a sea former and set down kelp ASAP.

	21-02-2000 06:36									#15
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The yucky part is when so-called "pact brothers" steal your territory by building sea bases right off your coast.

You can demand the base be given to you, of course, or trade it for another, but any way you look at it it's a raw deal. The territorial rules just aren't tight enough.

	21-02-2000 19:58									#16
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Did you ever have one of those games that you made a simple discovery and it rocked all your preconceived notions?

First off apologies to any of you that use the following approach but I just had to make mention of it after trying it.

I speak toward prebuilding condensors at your base square once you get Weather Paradigm. Wow!!

Using a typical 3 (2 empty between your bases ala 5 on the dice arrangement) square separation between all your bases allows ALL SQUARES TO BE RAINY even if you start on an arid world. This allows for base growth without having to terraform much and top it off with boreholes for mins and energy. Imagine incredible early game growth potential without having to wait for nutrient lifting or tree farms even in arid conditions.

Again apologies if this is over obvious to those that use this technique but sometime it's just so blindingly obvious that it's overlooked.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 21, 2000).]

	22-02-2000 03:14									#17
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Ogie: I have to admit that I didn't have heard of that aproach. Thanks for sharing it.
It's amazing how one can learn something new almost every week after playing for so long.
I will test it as soon as I get the chance.

	23-02-2000 10:03									#18
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Condensers are also exempt from nutrient restrictions, meaning if you get WP you can delay Gene Splicing in favor of some of the early military tech.

	23-02-2000 10:26									#19
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I see two potential problems with Og's idea re: condensors.

1) Don't condensors, like boreholes & mirrors, cause considerable eco-impact? That either means that you are reducing the number of boreholes that Chiron will tolerate, or you're inviting global warming.

2) Turn disadvantage. Sure, you're gaining the considerable advantages you mentioned, but how many turns are you losing while you wait for your formers to finish the job (and they are unavailable for other tasks)?

Really, Og, I think it's an intriguing idea; just being the ol' Devil's Advocate. ;- )

	23-02-2000 10:27									#20
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Vi,

Now why couldn't you have told me that months ago? (just kidding) I just recently came to that realization as I was primarily a forester. Now with condensors and a possible 4 nutrients per square w/o nutrient specials early game larger cities is much easier. In fact I just put out a suggestion of the same earlier today in the "Someon Explain the Basics to Me" thread.

Always learning,

Ogie

	23-02-2000 10:41									#21
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Hey Scott,

Glad to see you back around here. My thought on the turn advantage thing. In actuality I think it may be a gain. If you choose to forest, by going with the condensors at your base site you may actually be accelating forest growth in areas you wish to plant forest in due to raininess. Granted boreholes are former expensive, but coming from my latest frame of reference (Yang and +2 support running Police) I've got more formers than I know what to do with (allright maybe thats an exaggeration)but still the base plopped downin all rainies allows for growth without extra formering tasks. Later on you can go back and tailor as you see fit the important thing is to get those bases up and growing.

At least that my take on it. ;-)

Ps. On the eco damage front. Yeah I beleive they do cause problems for planet at least when they are within city limits (so in this case yes). Now I have to refine the use of condensor to be just outside city limits to crawler in nutrients and forest everywhere else except for 1 or 2 boreholes/city no more than that. Of course all the terraforming ecodamage issues go away with hybrid farms but that can be quite aways off.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited February 22, 2000).]

	07-04-2000 02:03									#22
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Catching up on some of the reading I missed....lol....I LOVE building bases on the special resources squares for one reason in particular: Short of building a Rec. Tanks, there is NOTHING you can do to further improve the (rather average) amount of resources you're getting from the base square....at least if you build over a resource bonus, you're netting yourself more than the norm, and unless I'm mistaken, if you build a soil enricher right next to said base, the base square is affected...been a while since I played around much with them, but i'll check....
-=Vel=-

	07-04-2000 02:28									#23
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Vel,

I came round to this point of veiw as well after Zsozso's reply. OTOH though nothing rocks the early game as much as a roaded/mine on a mineral rocky special or a borehole (assuming you did get WP) on a energy or mineral special. Lots of resources that are normally hindered by resource restriction lifting and with far greater output then one could get at the base square.

Also (again OTOH) nothing really moves a population along like a rainy condensor/farm on a nutrient special. Pre Gene Splice it gives you 7 nutients. With that many nuts you can put others to the task of specialists and/or foresters/miners/boreholers.
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited April 06, 2000).]

	07-04-2000 03:47									#24
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Ogie is right, especially about the mineral bonus + rocky squares. I condsider these more important than a landmark in the early game because a single square like this can provide the mineral equivelent of 4 squares. A base with a crawler on one of these has a huge boost.. all before the restriction boosting techs make boreholes or mines relevent.

	07-04-2000 09:52									#25
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I like to try and put my base on either a mineral or a nutrient special resource, but have another special resource with in the base area to use also. Ideally you have one of each. The next best is to have your base on a special nutrient bonus and have a monolith nearby.

The last game I played I put HQ on special mineral bonus and have two special nutrient resources in the bases area. I still lost though

	08-04-2000 18:31									#26
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As for the rocky/mine/road/mineral bouns issue - has anyone noticed that the mineral output from that square should be 6, not 7? OTOH, when you build a mine without a road, you get 5 mins.

LoD

	08-04-2000 20:44									#27
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Yes.. same thing with condenser I used to think.. but there are so few possible situations for resources in SMAC that I think the game has special coding for several situations.. like mine+ min bonus. I have never seen ghost energy appear though. Condenser+farm+soil enricher+ nutrient bonus should give you a lot less than it does (10) but I have heard some people say that condensers increase food in a square by 50% or something like that. No really good formulas out there to figure all this out.

	09-04-2000 11:51									#28
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Come to think of it, it sounds logical - more minerals require an efficent transport system.

LoD

	09-04-2000 23:00									#29
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When I'm playing a game, my overall goal is to optomize every square on the continent for production, and my thinking on that goes something like this:

With my standard game, bases spaced three apart, the biggest weakness I have is in that my base squares (even after the construction of a recycling tank) are among the worst on the map by the midgame. Thus, any chance I get, my preference is to build the bases right over a special resource square, knowing that the best I will be able to do from that square is an additional 1/1/1 with the construction of a Rec. Tanks. If a square falls inside the productive radius of my base, most often, I'll want that square to be a forest, because that provides me with the most bang for the turns spent in former activity.

If a square lies outside a base production radius, and is being worked by a crawler, my goal becomes to analyze that square, and optomize it for the maximum possible production of whatever I'm hauling out of there, and not even worry about the (generally minimal) loss of the "off" factor of production (ie - if I'm getting seven nutrients via my crawler, I'll not mind overmuch the fact that I'm losing a one mineral and one energy from that square). Boreholes, being that they produce soooo many minerals AND energy are the exception to this rule, and are almost always constructed inside the production zone of a base, where they can be worked via workers to maximize the gain, and where that base's enhancements can mitigate the eco damage caused by its presence.

Thoughts on crawler defense: It depends on your game, but it seems to me, that the most vulnerable position to be in is to have a lot of crawlers supplying food to your base. One attack by an enemy sniping unit, and you could lose several points of population very quickly. Next most vulnerable would be your mineral producers, especially if you have a lot of minerals tied up in support costs....again, one sneak attack and your base mineral production could begin to fall off precipitously. Least worrysome, are attacks made against crawlers providing additional energy....true, it will slow down your research and cause your per-turn cashflow to drop, but it does nothing to risk the population of the base in general, nor your ability to replace the losses.

-=Vel=-
(early afternoon musings)

	10-04-2000 18:35									#30
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Vel,

A couple of comments (my precaffienated early morning ramblings if you will).

I agree base sites tend to be the least productive of any square avaialble by mid game for most factions. This became exceedingly obvious to me in a Yang style Specialist base game with classic ICS spacing game. Not only did the number bases mean a disproportionate share of relatively low output squares (best case was 3/2/3 with tanks) but meant in order to really get the bang for the buck each of those miriad of bases needed to be making base facilities. Ouch that gets mineral intensive for 100% specilized bases (actually all but one worker on a borehole). Not that I am willing to scrap the 100% speacilist approach though. I still think there is a lot to be offered.

You may be asking yourself at this time why would you want that many specialized bases vs. the central dot on a 5 on a die. The answers are in that it allows a number of options.

1) For the same amount of crawlers (29 to convoy to the center) which is roughly 6 per each of the 5 bases one can make all 5 bases 90% specialist by harvesting condensor/farms/soil enrichers and assigning two workers to boreholes.

2) The approach allows engineers for maximum useful energy output at 5 per engineer times 14 population. Thats 90 energy at each base before multipliers!

3) SE choices normally thought to be insane such as Police/planned aren't all that harmful. True you'll lose the energy fromthe boreholes due to -4 efficiency but yyou still retain the base 90 fromthe specilists and the benefits of plus police/support/industry and growth are tremendous.

4) Drone issues are a think of the past witht hat many specilaists and a good police rating to keep those 2 workers in line.

Now ICS's with Morgan thats a different story. The untold bounties of energy from the base square make this the best possible square around. Run FM/wealth and your central base square is raking in dough. (Too bad Yang is so energy poor.)

Regarding your thoughts on sniping crawlers. Consider a specialist base for a sec. When I say a specialist base I am considering the city radius to be primarlily condensor/farm/soil enrichers with a crawler to bring in the nuts. 5 crawlers brings in enough nuts plus the central base square to support size 16.

Once at size 16 a lot of nice things start to happen. Extra nuts go into the tanks. If we assume that your nutrient crawlers are picked off and that you didn't have an interceptor ready to respond. Then the effect is hunger. Not bad until such time as it results in starvation. Even then it is not insurmountable b/c your specialists still are producing unlike your factories. you loose population until such time as you can replace them via redistributing your workers to the field to gain enough nuts to allow a pop boom. Then make them speiclists again. Net effect may be nothing if you can get that crawler produced and back out to the fields.

Now consider a loss of a mineral crawler or energy crawler the efect is immediate and harmful. Loss of minerals for this base can be crippling less so the energy loss.

Anyway just my thoughts (again from my precaffeinated mind).

PS. I'm still trying to sort out in my mind the benefits of a specialist vs conventional approach. On the one hand a conventional allows for growth without much fuss.Plant some trees and go on your way. Very former time friendly. But what that also means is comparitively speaking you end up using a lot of real estate. Consider three population points.

In a conventional city working in 2 forest 1 borehole with ultimately hybrids you'll net up to 6N/10M/13E (assuming +2 econ) but you will have used 3 squares of land.

In a specialist city you'll work 1 square the borehole and one crawlered square for total of 6N Crawler/6M/17E (assuming +2 econ majority of which is efficiency independent assumption is 2 engineers at equivalent 5 energy each) but more to the point you have only worked or crawlered 2 squares of land. This conservation of land at the price of a crawler seems to be to my mind the strength of the whole approach.

So on the one hand you have an easy way to expand at the cost of some territorial sprawl while a specialist (or more to the point a condensor/farm/soil enricher) approach allows for large base building at the cost of expensive t-forming with minimal land usage.

If I extrapolate the above out for the 18 squares of land you would net 60 M/78 E for conventional or 54 M/ 153 E for specialist base but in reality this example is flawed in that close spacing of boreholes will not allow this but the math starts to point out the trend that the output on the base radii squares ultimately favors a specialist (more to the point Specialized output using crawlers to harvest) approach vs. generalist production from predominantly foresting again at extreme expense of former investment.

I still don't know at this point which is better but perhaps now you can see why my proclivity to bulding as many formers as possible and my feeling on just how important the WP sp can be for this style.

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited April 10, 2000).]