29-12-2002 19:22									#1
	An old bug still causing trouble in Civ III v1.29f Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think that nearly everybody knows about this bug:

When you have a commercial treaty with another civilization and that civ is destroyed, you become a traitor because the AI believes that you broke the negociation, so nobody wants to negotiate with you.

I thought this problem was solved in one of the latest patch.

Anyway, a friend of mine has suffered from some kind of variant of this same problem. He told me he was exchanging goods with another civ which was at war with a third civ. This third civ conquered the only city with a harbor so the commercial network was broken and consequently (my friend's civ was in an island) the AI believes my friend is a traitor.

Perhaps somebody can tell Firaxis to solve this bug which is very annoying.

Thank you.

	29-12-2002 19:41									#2
	Got spare money?

The trouble is, if you wouldn't get a rep hit, you could use it as an exploit.
AI civ is down to one city, ready to be destroyed, quick let's sign a couple off GPT for tech trades...

	29-12-2002 21:57									#3
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hi ,

and ones again an other reason for a patch for civIII , .....


Firaxis , please , ......

have a nice day

	29-12-2002 22:04									#4
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Sorry I dont agree that this would be prone to mass exploit. On the whole the thing is ridiculous that you should be held responsible for doing no wrong. In addition to the problem mentioned here I have had the AI accuse me of breaking or misusing ROP treaties when Ive never actually had them with the civ they say I broke them with.

Obviously this aspect of the game needs some serious attention.

	30-12-2002 03:51									#5
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How often does a dying civ have lots of good tech you can trade gpt for? Theres a simple way to do it, but they probably won't patch regular Civ3 and do it. But in PtW just make a civ that gets destroyed cancel all treatys before it dies, no rep hit to player or anything.

	02-01-2003 18:49									#6
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I don't see how can I exploit this bug.

Anyway, I think there is more to lose than to earn with this bug.

	02-01-2003 19:48									#7
	Got spare money?

Surely the simple answer is to have the game so your rep is only affected by what happens during your turn, not when the AI is playing. That should not be hard to introduce in a patch

I agree this is annoying. It affects my gameplay to the extent that I try to avoid deals that might fail and give me a rep hit.

edit: On reflection, PTW seems to be less hard on the human playerthan civ3 if a deal breaks down through no fault of your own but I don't know what, if anything, they changed.

	02-01-2003 20:36									#8
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quote: I agree this is annoying. It affects my gameplay to the extent that I try to avoid deals that might fail and give me a rep hit.

IMHO, that's the whole idea behind the rep hit...
It offers you a (strategic) choice.

quote: I don't see how can I exploit this bug.

Short version:
Deity, I ended up on an island, the rest was on one big continent.
Traded iron to german(my only one, it dissapeard a few turns later, no GPT deals anymore)
AI decides to gang-bang to romans, the moment they got weaker then I, I was able to do some tech trading with them(which I was desperate for)
Did so to the extreme, was able to come back this was, but was burned for the rest of the game. (I did win, so, what the hell. I probably wouldn't have, if it weren't for the Romans)

	03-01-2003 05:04									#9
	Put an end to popups!

Ok, whenever I hear someone say "We shoudln't do this cause someone will exploit it" in a single player game....Why not just let them expoit it? If it will give them pleasure then by all means they SHOULD exploit it, and for the rest of honest Civ3 players, they simply do not need to exploit it.

	03-01-2003 05:41									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sure Tass, no problem... you can do whatever you want in SP..,

but the first posters is asking for a change that would lead to a (possible) exploit, not the same thing

	03-01-2003 13:57									#11
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Sorry I dont agree that this would be prone to mass exploit. On the whole the thing is ridiculous that you should be held responsible for doing no wrong. In addition to the problem mentioned here I have had the AI accuse me of breaking or misusing ROP treaties when Ive never actually had them with the civ they say I broke them with. Obviously this aspect of the game needs some serious attention.

I tend to agree that at least some of these instances should be fixed so that the human player don't get blamed all the time. However, the ROP thing can easily be explained. The AI consider it equal to breaking a ROP when a war is declared and you have units in its territory, and afterwards accuses you of breaking ROP. This makes sense as you proved that it is dangerous to have your units inside its territory.

So next time you declare a war, make sure that all your units are outside enemy territory.

	03-01-2003 15:12									#12
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quote: Originally posted by alva but the first posters is asking for a change that would lead to a (possible) exploit, not the same thing

So?

	30-01-2003 06:36									#13
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Surely the simple answer is to have the game so your rep is only affected by what happens during your turn, not when the AI is playing. That should not be hard to introduce in a patch

What if an enemy destroys one of your colonies because you didn't protect it and so you can't export that resource anymore? I think it's fair for your reputation to be hurt in that situation.

	30-01-2003 13:21									#14
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Surely the simple answer is to have the game so your rep is only affected by what happens during your turn, not when the AI is playing. That should not be hard to introduce in a patch

There's seldom simple answers that are complete. One obvious, glaring problem with this suggestion is when you are asked to withdraw or declare war during the AI's turn. If you declare war then, it's clearly you who should be blamed.

	30-01-2003 17:37									#15
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hi ,

still no answer from Firaxis , ....

have a nice day

	30-01-2003 19:09									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I often get annoyed by this bug myself. But, who cares what the losers call you when you have won

I think this was never fixed because a complete, flawless solution would take too much time to program. One possible solution would be if the offended party could demand some sort of non-negotiable compensation, or in the case of broken communications agree to continue trade aftewards.

	30-01-2003 22:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by RobC What if an enemy destroys one of your colonies because you didn't protect it and so you can't export that resource anymore? I think it's fair for your reputation to be hurt in that situation.

The only problem with rep hits are that they don't happen to the AI's, and that you suffer a rep hit when the AI's are the one who breaks the deal, and that is what needs addressed.

	31-01-2003 00:17									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

It's definitely irritating. I've learned to deal with it, and since I usually warmonger it's not a huge concern. I've noticed it a LOT more in my "builder" style games. It's actually important then.

I suppose it could be exploitable, but you cannot design every single feature of the game around avoiding exploits. IMO, the fact that my reputation can be ruined because AI#1 attacks AI#2 and breaks our trade connection is BS, and needs fixing.

-Arrian

	31-01-2003 03:55									#19
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Yes I think that should be corrected. The idea that england has a trade deal with France and germany cuts the road with france/england should not cause a rep hit to either France or England. Both would know the other did not intend to break the deal. The deal could be cancel at no loss or held until it was able to be concluded.
I really do not see the value of a dying civ causing a rep hits for non participating countries.
It is seldom a concern for me as I do not make trades often, only war.

	02-02-2003 09:53									#20
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I think it should be corrected to. One way to look at it would be "Can the nation still ship it ?", Yes no hit, No then take the RP hit. I had the RP hit when I was buying the resource and they lost it.

	02-02-2003 11:41									#21
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quote: Originally posted by panag hi , still no answer from Firaxis , .... have a nice day

I think 4 or 5 patches to Civ 3, release of PTW and two patches for it constitutes an answer - "no". I doubt Firaxis considers this a bug. (Actually I don't either - isn't a bug a programming error that causes a lockup or program failure of some sort? This is certainly not an error, but probably intentional.) I think the programmers believe this is how it should be.
Well, I don't like these rep hits that aren't my fault or even under my control, but I've learned to try to avoid situations where they might come up. I suspect Firaxis looks at these rep hits as another way to give the AI a chance to succeed. If you remove them, I doubt that we human players would ever lose a diplomatic victory if we chose to go for it.