03-03-2000 23:31									#1
	Specialist cities Remove this text

Firstly this is obviously a single player posting.

Much has been inferred and written on 100% specialist cities for science purposes. I saw Vel visited here the other day so I thought maybe we could start a general discussion on this particular item. Vel feel free to chime in here. (We need some veterans now that Zso has gone)

All specialist city approach

Pros - Drones can not be made since all citizen are specialists with no workers to turn to drones.
Science and/or Econ is great.
Lab and energy output allowed even under starving siutations

Cons -Energy vs. Science output is dependent on switching specialist types until advent of engineers (fusion).

Loss of production output (minerals) makes the need for facility enhancements from rush buys/disbands same for SPs (crawler support)

I have a dillema but think that the pros and the cons can be reconcield at a cost of compromise through judicious use of crawlers.

In reality I would like to go to this approach to as many cities as possible beyond the central city in the 5 on the dice arrangement. That being said the outer cities will not be in a nutrient surplus mode to supply the interior science city with scads of crawlers carrying nuts.

In, order to accomplish this I am thinking of use of consdensors and farms (to be later upgraded to soil enrichers). By use of 6 squares in this arrangement I can crawler back 24 nuts + 3 for base square supporting a total of 13 population points +1 excess. When soil enrichers come online it will allow a full 16 +1 excess.

Now here's my dillemna, I want my cake and eat it too. Icould either go as a completely science city arrangement or better yet have some utility for the city and get some minerals and energy for all five cities at the cost of having 2 workers in the field for each city. I have two excess squares (8 surround every base) that I would like to put down boreholes and actually have populace work. (I'm assuming all these terraformed things take place after hybrids are built so there is no eco damage to speak of) If I send workers out to the borehole fields I can still have drone issues (not likely with a bunch of thinkers contributing psych but still possible). This would mean a city that has a total of +1 nutrient after populace support, and 13 minerals and energy at its disposal and every other square would be crawlering back nutrients.

Does anyone have any thoughts, aside from the massive former times involved?

[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 03, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 03, 2000).]

	04-03-2000 02:44									#2
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Well I am no expert on this, I really do not think of this strategy because it seems rather impractical. However if you are going to feed the science city, seek out and find nutrient bonuses. Here is something interesting-

Condenser (1) + farm (1) + rainy (2) = 4

correct.

Condenser (1) + farm (1) + rainy (2) + soil enricher (1) = 6

Try it. Those terraform enhancements give you 6 food total.


And here is the biggest anomaly-

condenser,farm,rainy,soil enricher, nutrient bonus can produce TEN food if you use a crawler to carry it to a city.

Try it. Rather interesting how the numbers just do not add up.

	04-03-2000 02:55									#3
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E. Nigma,

Wow that's incredible, I'll have to check it out. By doing so I can cut out another square of crawlered nuts. and add another borehole. (a borehole in terms of energy produced is equal if not better than a specialist 6 energy vs. Engineer 3 + 2 for 5 take into account efficiency loss and call it a draw)

Now the ultimate 16 size city will be generating +1 nutrient 18 minerals and 18 energy and thats before a nutrient special approach.

Of course it's still much easier to shuttle in Nuts from the sea and less former intensive as well but that's more squares worked. 4 max nuts for normal square and 6 with special.

Hmmm....

	04-03-2000 04:40									#4
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I think the main advantage to having a specialist base is so that you can have FM and bombers, helos etc..

Just use punishment spheres. They really are underrated and you can make cities as big as you want.

I think that I might use a specialist base if it fit my needs temporarily, but actually it seems like more trouble than a person would have to go through, and I have never done so.

	04-03-2000 05:16									#5
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Enigma, the condenser/farm/soil enricher/nutrient/rainy combination produces 10 food regardless of whether you you use crawlers or workers. The base displays the 8+ graphic as it is the largest it has, but you still get the full 10.

These additional nutrients are one very good reason to put condensers on nutrient specials. Even before soil enrichers they produce 7.

	04-03-2000 05:27									#6
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Enigma, the #'s actually do make sense or "add up" as you put it.

Rainy = 2
Farm = 1
Soil Enricher = 1
Nutrient Bonus = 3
Condensor = total x .5 = 3.5

So the computer rounds it down to 10 from 10.5.

The reason your numbers didn't add up is because you were assuming the condensor adds +1 food when in fact it increases nutrients in the square by 50% rounded down.

Ogie,

As far as the specialist city goes, I have never found a use for one. It seems like it just takes too much time to set up.

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[This message has been edited by BustaMike (edited March 03, 2000).]

	04-03-2000 06:44									#7
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As Morgan, and thereby dependent on Free Market, I use small specialist cities as military bases - crawlers for mineral and resource support, and then base 20-30 units from them. It unclogs support in my other bases, and no damned pacifist peaceniks rioting either.

	07-03-2000 09:10									#8
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I thought resource bonuses only added +2 of their type. I could swear it says that somewhere.

I've often wished SMAC had a production analysis button, so you could get it to explain why a given square was producing what it was producing...

	07-03-2000 20:41									#9
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Resource specials are usually +2, but the combinations minerals + mine and nutrients + soil enricher increase it. The jungle complicates things further; Nutrient special + farm + soil enricher + condenser + jungle = 13 nutrients. I have some notes on this, and think I have a formula that explains it. Will check it out when I get home today.

	08-03-2000 10:53									#10
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All right, this formula should explain how many nutrients you get from a square. It has been tested, but only on rainy squares, as there are quite a lot of combinations.

Nutrients =

Square raininess
+ 1 farm
+ 1 soil enricher
+ 2 nutrient special (+ 3 if enricher present)
+ 1 jungle (+ 2 if both farm and enricher present)
* 1.5 condenser (rounding fractions down)

	07-03-2000 23:49									#11
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Hey TC thanks for the formula. Got one for sea squares?

	08-03-2000 00:15									#12
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Now after gaining some understanding of the whole nutrient equation, the question that begs asking is, "If you own the Monsoon Jungle area doesn't borg spacing make sense in order to maximize populations of near 16 with a minimum of square wastage?" I believe this approach would yield a number of specialist cities in fairly short order.

Again the key is to crawler the nuts back with a minimum of crawlers (5 per city initally then 4 after soil enrichers are online or 3 if you are lucky enough to have nut special). Within 16 turns of pop boom & rush buying necessities of creches, crawlers, & Hab complex you can make a size 16 specialist city,ala instant science or econ. 12 of these would fit nicely in a 8 x 8 grid. Thats 576 base science or econ before any multipliers (before engineers are available then 576 econ and 384 labs and all of this is independent of efficiency loss). The key here is to get the size up ASAP and then one can always go back and fine tune your terraforming and facilites.

	08-03-2000 00:15									#13
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I have not really tested this but I think sea squares are pretty basic; there are no enrichers or condensers, so:

Sea nutrients =

1 basic
+ 2 kelp farm (+ 3 if Aquafarm in city)
+ 2 nutrient special
+ 1 Freshwater sea

Negated by fungus of course. Land nutrients are obviously negated by rockiness and reduced by mines, but nobody ever builds mines in non-rocky terrain anyway, do they?

Edit: Aquafarms only work with kelp farms.
[This message has been edited by Tau Ceti (edited March 07, 2000).]

	08-03-2000 00:34									#14
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Are you guys saying that putting a condensor next to a rainy spot will make 3 food? I'm thinking that condensors only make rainy land out of moist land and moist land out of arid. It's possible that I'm completely wrong about it. Please tell me if I am.

	08-03-2000 00:47									#15
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Using the scenario editor, you can put soil enrichers and condensers on sea squares. If so, they work like in my land formula above (replacing jungle with freshwater sea, square raininess with always 1, and + 1 for farms with + 2 for kelp farms (+ 3 if Aquafarm)). Thus you can get 15 nutrients from a sea square, but not without altering the rules or cheating.

Adam_Smith: A condenser alone on a rainy square will produce 3 nutrients (2 * 1.5). This effect is separate and in addition to increasing the raininess of surrounding squares. But it only multiplies the production in the square it is in, not surrounding ones.

Ogie: Those jungle specialist cities sound very promising. Please let us know how they work out.

	08-03-2000 01:29									#16
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Adam,

As Tau indicates a big resounding yes. Condensors will make a rainy worth 3 nuts without taking into account farms (in actuality it will make a moist worth three as it raises moist to rainy and then adds its bonus as well) but only on the square it is situated not on surrounding squares. Whats more important though is that all this can be accomplished BEFORE Gene Splice (nutrient restriction lifting). All it takes is grabbing the Weather Paradigm SP so that you can get the advanced terraforming options.



[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 07, 2000).]

	08-03-2000 04:17									#17
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Wow! I always put those things on rocky areas. That is what I what I was doing wrong. I thought you guys where talking about the spaces around the condensor. I learn something. cool. thanx

	09-03-2000 19:18									#18
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But why should you use workers on nutrient squares? Surely Moonson Jungle can be exploited more efficient by an army of crawlers. Then you can free those four workers (or what ever number suits your whim) to work on boreholes, where workers are as efficient as *two* crawlers.

Or have I missed something essential here?

	10-03-2000 10:30									#19
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I habitually place boreholes outside the base production radius, where they don't tick Planet off. I usually have mine-crawlers bringing in minerals up to the point where further minerals would result in the wrath of Planet, so only the energy is useful from the boreholes anyway.

I have toyed with running a worm-based economy -- I pollute, worms come, I kill the worms for morale and profit, leaving me free to indulge in horrific deficit spending. Anyone successfully pull this off? What are the major pitfalls? If running Green, is it possible to irritate planet into sending you a continuous stream of free recruits?

	09-03-2000 23:00									#20
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Placing enough boreholes outside of base radius can cause potentially severe problems. Be prepared for Global warming and sea level rises. On the other hand, if you are confident you can handle that, or it is part of your strategy, that's fine.

Similar with the polution/mind worm reaping. Just be sure you have enough forces to handle the results. I have frequently had enough mind worms appear from one fungal bloom that I lose a base (if I am unprepared for it). You might also want to consider limited pollution. Put lots of Boreholes in the radius of one base, don't build Tree Farm of Hybrid Forest, and run Green to keep the rest of your empire peachy. Then all the fungal blooms will occur in one location, and you can concentrate forces there to reap the rewards.

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	10-03-2000 06:37									#21
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Hi YT

I usually build boreholes *outside* the base radius and harvest them with crawlers because they don't cause pollution in that position. If you build them within the city radius, then the problems you describe do manifest themselves.

- Mis

	10-03-2000 16:52									#22
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shimmin - wormrape worms from atrocities or planetplundering aren't controllable, but if you are Green, you can do something even better - massive amounts more industry, and a PB or two, without significant planet problems. I don't care about worms - I have empath scout rovers and choppers for them, but I do care about several turns of former time worth of improvements getting blown away by fungal blooms.

	10-03-2000 19:45									#23
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Bondetamp,

You've hit the nail on the head. It is essential in this strategy to use crawlers for nuts. Putting a worker there is a waste and actually becomes detrimental with respect to drone generation and city growth as a result.

In my opinion, use of crawler vs. worker needs to be looked at for every sqaure and purpose. Crawlers are great when a single resource is being harvested (i.e. a 13 nutrient square 0 mins 0 energy or 4 mins from a road and mine) why waste a worker when that worker can be designated a specialist that will return the equivalent of 3-6 useful energy points depending on the type of specialist employed (3-librarian & thinker, 5 engineer, 6 transcendi, I neglected the effect of psych contributions). If by working that square you can come up with a combination of minerals and energy that equal the contribution from the specialists then it may make sense to have workers on the square not crawlers. (Certainly that is the case with boreholes netting 12 resource points. By putting a crawler on it you only get half the amount be it mins or energy. Because you only get half the benefit, in my book it is wasteful terraforming to put boreholes outside the city radius and crawler back. I always look to put as many boreholes as I can without extreme eco damage and work them hence my dillemna of having my cake and eating it too.) One always has to remember the efficiency loss though, if the mins and energy by working the square equals the output of a specialist then a specialist wins (again, in my book) b/c of its immunity to efficiency loss, no drone issues etc.

	10-03-2000 23:49									#24
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Mis: I was specifically talking about Borehole outside base radii. Inside the base radii, you have to worry about base specific eco-damage, that can cause fungal blooms. But outside the base radii, you still get general Global eco-damage, the most noticible effect of which is sea level rising. So, if you place lots of Boreholes (and other enhancements) outside your base radii, you had still better be prepared for the sea level to rise. Or, as I said, you can be counting on it to happen and incorporate it into your stratagy.

	11-03-2000 00:05									#25
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YT et al.

You raise points of eco damage while workers are working squares within city limits (and this also holds true for crawlers harvesting resources within city limits). My asusmption here is that sooner or later you'll build Hybrid farms for these borehole rich cities and thereby eliminate any ecodamage from working terraformed improvements within city limits. This of course does not eliminate eco damage from excess minerals however.

You'll want both tree farms and hybrid facilities if only to add 50% each for econ outputs of these cities when and if you make your specialists engineers not to mention the reduced enviro impact.

	11-03-2000 00:31									#26
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Unintentional Double Post


[This message has been edited by Ogie Oglethorpe (edited March 10, 2000).]

	11-03-2000 05:09									#27
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When using all these crawlers to transport resources back to your bases is there any ways of proctecting them that any of you have come up with besides tactical needlejets? I was thinking AAA garisons positioned with the crawlers, but that might become quite expensive. It would be nice to armour the crawlers and give them AAA, but that too would become expensive. My experience has taught me that the AI uses air power very poorly so this question is directed more toward multiplayer games.

	13-03-2000 08:10									#28
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wouldn't an airbase with a couple of interceptors do the trick?
[This message has been edited by bondetamp (edited March 12, 2000).]

	13-03-2000 10:06									#29
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White Elephant,

Human player would probably not bother with taking out a supply crawler if it were defended in some way. The reason is that it wouldn't be worth it. That is the answer to the other question. They aren't worth defending. Just build another one if you need to.

	13-03-2000 12:27									#30
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Bondetamp,

I don't believe that you can add AAA to a crawler, as it's cargo uses up the unit's gun slot. I do add deep radar (cost o) when available to my sea crawlers, then quickly post them as lookouts (and eventually a sea wall). If I have a high production city which can produce an armored crawler in the same number of turns as an unarmored one, I will do it. Otherwise, the economic cost is too great. I'd rather build a military unit to patrol / react.