31-12-2002 00:25									#31
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Hey, [don't ] stop editing my posts!

DeepO

Last edited by Randolph on 31-12-2002 at 00:33

	31-12-2002 00:27									#32
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BTW, I lost my reply to Nathan, and you edited two post at the same time?

	31-12-2002 00:37									#33
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lol for a minute there I went mad with power. But when I couldn't edit anything in the other forums I decided to resist the temptation to act very very childish.

Any way I'm going to run a quick 10 min test just for my own sake. I havn't much time so it'll just be a random map on chieftan with no barbs to see how many stlrs I can make in the same time as it would take to build the pyramids using the capital city and w/o developing land.

	31-12-2002 00:51									#34
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Why not just use Alex's scenario instead of a random map? It should give more accurate results.

	31-12-2002 00:53									#35
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Why go "all or nothing"? Here's a new proposal: let's produce one or two Settlers in our first cities, then switch the higher-production one to the Pyramids. This will jumpstart our REX phase, making it faster than any other teams'. At the same time, we'll have started a Wonder earlier than anyone else (I doubt any team will start a Wonder when they have only 3 or so cities). Thoughts?

I also have to mention that I'm very much against using Workers to boost our Wonder city. Early Workers (if we decide to build them) are far too precious, especially Industrious ones.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 01:06									#36
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Dominae: If we would follow that scenario, we wouldn't get the pyramids. It is really an all or nothing approach, although the addition of workers might be something to test. But I think it is obvious that at least a few teams will try to get the pyramids, if we are going to do it we should at least have fair chance of getting it. If we wait until we build a settler, or even a spear in city #2, we might lose the advantage we have now.

DeepO

	31-12-2002 02:14									#37
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DeepO, why are you so sure we'll lose the Pyramids if we do not start ASAP? Consider the case if we did not have the extra Settler: most teams would be finishing their first Settler by now (like us), and would be preparing for another in their 2 cities. I seriously doubt they would begin a Wonder with only 2 or even 3 cities in their empire. Our extra Settler just means that we're one "cycle" ahead, so we should be beginning our Wonder before anyone else.

Although I admit it is not a good idea to base our plans on what we imagine other teams to be doing, I'm convinced other teams will not prioritize any Wonder so early. We have that option because we got our Settler-gift. There is definitely an increased chance that we might lose the Pyramids nonetheless, which is why we should set ourselves up for a switch-over Wonder.

On a side note, given how divided the team is on building the Pyramids in the first place, I think a compromise is in order.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 02:17									#38
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Just say "no" to the despotic golden age!



-Arrian

	31-12-2002 02:33									#39
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I vote a cautious yes- i'd love to have the pyramids, but wouldn't sacrifice a worker for it, it seem we better with the worker for now. I have far less exprience with the game than anyone here, but i still think that if we keep ourselves isolated from the other teams (or forced to be seperated) we must focus on REX and take a few risks to get it, like this wonder, for example.

	31-12-2002 03:01									#40
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I would like to clarify a point here: building the Pyramids will not speed up REXing. Unless we have access to around twice the landmass that is already visible, by the time we finish the Pyramids, most of our continent would be settled if we focused on pure Settlers instead. In other words, for the Pyramids effect to kick in and really affect REXing, we would have to still be expanding by the time the Pyramids are finished, which is too late IMO. The two times the Pyramids actually help REX is when there is a lot of land to expand into (a lot more than we have), or if a Great Leader appears in an initial skirmish (not likely to happen in our game). So, saying that the Pyramids supports a quick REX strategy is false. I'm not 100% sure about this, mind you, but the 5 or so games where I've tried to get the Pyramids to help me expand were unsuccessful in that regard.

I suppose we could go "all out" and pump Workers into our Pyramid city to get it up and running really really fast; I have no experience with this strategy.

Under normal circumstances, what the Pyramids would do for us is boost our post-REX build-up stage, when we're trying to get our cities big and productive. Couple with a GA, this could be very powerful.


Dominae

	31-12-2002 04:38									#41
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Coupled with a jumpstart for another wonder maybe...?!

Edit from Dominae: Whoa, I just edited your post alva...now how did I do that!??

Last edited by Dominae on 31-12-2002 at 04:59

	31-12-2002 05:00									#42
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*OPD mumbles incoherently about war against Irag.

Then says something about the pyramids being worth 5 and a half stlrs (yes I know it's not eight) in the first city and a further 4 stlrs in the cities that could be built from those stlrs before the pyramids are finished. Then something anout no lonmger caring and somethings about skywalker being a bit of a pain bu t only being a lonely 14 year old with nothing else to do but surf poly.

Anyway happy new year to you all may 2003 bring you much happiness and keep you're resolutions aslong as you can.

opd

	31-12-2002 05:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by alva Coupled with a jumpstart for another wonder maybe...?!

If we happen to be out of Despotism as well, the sky is the limit.


Dominae


P.S: Sorry for editing your post alva...Won't happen again.

	31-12-2002 07:26									#44
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Dominae: we can assume that at least one other civ got a free settler as well, which they either could set aside for the pyramids, or not. I'm not saying we are going to lose the race if we don't start on it right away, I'm just saying there is a chance they at least put their 3rd, or 4th city to the wonder. That, we can't match, even with perfect terrain (which we do not have, some cows would outproduce us without worker adding).

I don't agree on the 'Rex is not helped by it in our situation', but allow me to test it out, I guess that if we find ourselves on a larger land, with no enemy nearby (enough for e.g. another 8 cities), the arguments against it would fall. I think that what we see now we certainly can occupy, and only more can come. Testing will tell us how the balance lays precisely.

DeepO

	31-12-2002 07:49									#45
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If we go straight for monarchy, how long would that take us ??
An estimated guess will do , and assuming no tech trade (which at that part of the tree is rather unlikely)

Btw: editing other peeps posts is sooooo old, pfff we've been doing that back in the olden' days

	31-12-2002 08:07									#46
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On consideration, I'll back off from my initial "Rex like crazy" position.

I'm not as much into calculation as some of you... I'll just throw out some questions:

So let's say town #2 is set to build the Pyramids. Does it need a temple first? When is the build complete (# of turns and year)? How many other towns will have been founded at that point? How quiclky do we see the benefit? (sort of to Dominae's "show me the money" or 'immediate payback' philosphy)

More importantly, what does this mean for our game-winning strategy? In (my) Seven Pillars framework, it seems that, given our seeming isolation and the power of Industrious, we are going to make a bet on early production power. I'm *absolutely* fine with that... I just wanna know that building the Pyramids is maximally contributory to that goal.

Please re-read the second paragraph in that regard.

I do believe we can grab the Pyramids if we want to... our terrain is conducive, and we know tricks (e.g., adding Workers, as simple as that is) that our opponents probably do not.

	31-12-2002 08:20									#47
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there's allways 'denial' too, what we have,....

not to mention a couple of culture points, I'm sure DeepO is hesitant to mention it , so I'll do it, but softly

	31-12-2002 08:35									#48
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Theseus, those are the issues that need testing. Which, from my side won't happen tonight, I'm off to bed, and not totally sober... I'm glad you are considering other options though.

One remark: I'm not certain we can assume others don't know the tricks too, although I still feel confident we are the best team in this respect. I certainly wouldn't build a temple in #2, but start on the pyramids right away, preferably adding workers to both get it over with asap, and to be reasonably sure we are first.

Oh, and I was considering the culture aspect, but it doesn't matter that much, I'm sure that if we were not to go for the pyramids, I could convince at least a few of us in building a few temples instead. I don't care where the culture is coming from, as long as it's there

DeepO

	31-12-2002 08:53									#49
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I just sent a save roughly mirroring our current position to DeepO and the GS "secret" mailbox (in case anyone else wants to do some experimenting). I'm about play out a move sequence building the Pyramids. Stay tuned; maybe some questions are about to be answered.

Nathan

	31-12-2002 09:37									#50
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Oops, I started a new thread before reading Nathan's post. Oh well...

	31-12-2002 12:38									#51
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After some testing, I've officially entered my vote against the Pyramids. It was an idea worth looking at, but we can REX well enough without them that they aren't worth blowing a GA over.

Nathan

	31-12-2002 12:40									#52
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What about the ditch to GL (either) option?

	31-12-2002 13:02									#53
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither What about the ditch to GL (either) option?

I could go for using the Pyramids for a prebuild if our intended target is one of the GLs (with which one depending on what kind of land mass we're on), especially if we do it in such a way as not to compromise EotS's settler/worker pump operations. (I've about decided I want a granary in EotS ASAP, and to have it produce nothing but settlers and workers from then on. Then once we're finished REXing, it can grow big pretty quickly.) But I don't like the Pyramids as our primary target.

Nathan

	31-12-2002 13:07									#54
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I think I agree re the Pyramids. We can have most of the 'bubble' that is visible settled before it can be completed. Then we are talking a free building that can be built, where needed. Whereas, with either GL we are gaining abilities that no other civ can have.

Go GL's!

	31-12-2002 13:15									#55
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The value of the abilities conferred by the Great Lighthouse depends enormously on what type of world we're living in. Not that we have to decide which GL we'll make our primary target any time soon.

Nathan

	31-12-2002 13:30									#56
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Exactly. If we are alone, the Lighthouse. If we are among many, Library.

Time will tell. But we may get both...

	31-12-2002 13:33									#57
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Of course, we are not alone, ALONE. But are there others besides Vox?

I just played an SP game. Me and 3 AIs were on a vast continent. It is so big that the AI will not settle it all until made to. Meanwhile, the other 5 are crammed into a smaller area across the ocean.

	31-12-2002 16:11									#58
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First i voted for the Pyramids, but back then it was likely that we are alone.
Now that we have made contact, i'd definately vote NO to the pyramids; it's not good to spend so many shields on a wonder when we might need to build military units, incase the Persians will go offensive. (they most likely will, if there is none else with them on the island besides us)

	31-12-2002 19:20									#59
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I just sent a save roughly mirroring our current position to DeepO and the GS "secret" mailbox (in case anyone else wants to do some experimenting). I'm about play out a move sequence building the Pyramids. Stay tuned; maybe some questions are about to be answered.

Well... you mixed some email addies, it seems, but no problem, I found it. Thanks for setting it up! I'm going to test a few things myself, although I don't think there is really a point anymore, with Vox appearing, the peaceful expansion is not the best strategy anymore.

But it's great to have a test scenario nevertheless, if only to determine how many vet WCs we can make in 20 turns time

DeepO

	31-12-2002 20:54									#60
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Okay, it probably is of no importance anymore, but I tested it with really going al the way in #2. 3 workers added, pyramids finished in 1225 BC. #2 is now producing 18 shields (at size 8), of which 16 are uncorrupted. The workers were added after making sure all tiles they would work were improved, I believe with a bit more focus and micromanagment it should be able to shave off another 2 or 3 turns. One worker was added to grow to size 8, after which food production stopped (rather late in the test).

As I had some trouble with barbs (who destroyed work on a settler 1 turn before finishing, they definately behave more intelligent in PTW), I only built 3 extra cities, but still, another 2 settlers are nearly finished. Further, 1 worker remains. The barbs had one advantage: I took a few camps, allowing me to set tech to max (adjusted to eventually 30% lux to keep #2 happy), so I finished literature 5 turns before the pyramids got built. Without the camps, I fear literature would have come after the pyramids.

I still don't think it was a waste of time, but given our new situation, this kind of focus won't be possible. If we would go for it, I think adding 3 workers does pay off eventually: I got about the same performance of nye, as in another 10 turns I can have at least 10 cities too. But because of Vox, and because of the possible barbs, we can't do it this focused. In 1225 BC, I only had 3 warriors remaining, and still two camps are visible. Only the barbs are causing too much trouble with this limited military, so Vox certainly will be something else.

A few remarks: You don't need pottery when building the pyramids: you gain granaries without them. And, in clearing the forest of the tiles in both EotS and #2's territory, the 10 shields went to EotS, even if the forest was closer to #2. We don't waste shields by clearing forest when a wonder is building (something I didn't know before).

DeepO