31-12-2002 16:22									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Hurricane As an Elvis fan, I will start my own petition if they dare call the third movie "The Return of the King".

	31-12-2002 20:12									#62
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The actor who plays Aragorn has flipped BTW.


He has "become" Aragorn.


When he has some timeleft he goes riding without saddle even if it rains cats and dogs in New Zealand.

	31-12-2002 20:24									#63
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Oh...


My...


God...

	31-12-2002 21:55									#64
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I'm sorry Markos, but that's a dumb assertion. During the Middle Ages, and such, the only black people were in Africa. I know this isn't the real world, but its setting is a sort of fantasy Middle Ages.

sigh...

	31-12-2002 23:39									#65
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eeeer Sava how on earth did you think that i actually agreed with the quoted text?

	31-12-2002 23:41									#66
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Yeah... and saruman looks like a jew...

Looks suspiciously like a Sith Lord.


"A Gandalf you will not pull on me!" -Yogi, from the Diary of a Crazed Mimbanite webcomic, which appears to be dead. Knew I should have archived my favorite ones. *sigh*

	01-01-2003 01:13									#67
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG eeeer Sava how on earth did you think that i actually agreed with the quoted text?

because I'm dumb, slow, and easily confused...

	01-01-2003 01:30									#68
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Saruman is Nazism, the Uruk-hai were the SS; Sauron is Communism, Mordor is the USSR, the black witch of Arnor is Stalin; the elves of Lauthlorien are the French; Gondor is Europe; Aragon is Eisenhower, the Dunedin are the US, and the army of lost souls are Euro emigres to the RSA, NZ, Oz and the States; Harad is Japan; Pippin is the Irish, Merry is the Scots, Sam is the Welsh, and Frodo the English. So somehow the pathetic English midgets win WW2 by throwing a bit of gold in a furnace and the American fighting forces get second billing. Typical.

	01-01-2003 02:45									#69
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Tolkien started writting the story in the 1930's so it is no wonder the story line is white dominated and Eurocentric. One has to look at the story from the historical prospective of the time in which it was written not with the hyper-race concenciousness of the 21st century.

BTW was I the only one who thought the two towers deviated WAY to much from the book? Faramir takes Frodo hostige? Elves fight at Helm's Deep? Elrond sends his family away before the end of the series? Bah, the Kiwi director screwed things up this time.

	01-01-2003 03:04									#70
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The writer of the analysis is following his own thought processes, not Tolkien's.
LOTR is racist against trees, depicting Treebeard as slow and shuffling, along with all the other worthless Ents.

	01-01-2003 03:40									#71
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The story is about Atilla, et al.

Here is a snippet from the following site: http://www.viking.ucla.edu/volsungs/overview.html

The Saga of the Volsungs is one of the greatest tales of western storytelling. The unknown Icelandic author who wrote the saga in the thirteenth century based his prose epic on stories found in far older traditions of Norse heroic poetry. Volsunga Saga, as it is often called, recounts the mythic deeds of the dragon slayer, Sigurd the Volsung, and tells of runic knowledge. It is a story of love, betrayal, the vengeance of a barbarian queen, and schemes of Attila the Hun. The saga describes events from the ancient wars among the kings of the Burgundians, the Huns, and the Goths and treats some of the same legends as the Middle High German epic poem, the Nibelungenlied. In both accounts, though in different ways, Sigurd (Siegfried in the German tradition) acquires the Rhinegold and then becomes tragically entangled in a love triangle, involving a supernatural woman. In the saga she is a Valkyrie, one of Odin's warrior-maidens, the ones who choose the slain for Valhalla at the end of battle.

In Scandinavia, in the centuries after the Middle Ages, knowledge of the Sigurd story never died out among the rural population. Full of supernatural elements, including the schemes of one-eyed Odin, a ring of power, and the sword that was reforged, the tale remained alive in oral tradition. In the nineteenth century, as the Volsung story was rediscovered, becoming widely known throughout Europe.



J.R.R TOLKIEN AND RICHARD WAGNER

Translated into many languages, Volsunga Saga became a primary source for writers of fantasy and for those interested in oral legends of historical events and the mythic past of northern Europe. The saga deeply influenced William Morris in the nineteenth century and J. R. R. Tolkien in the twentieth. Tolkien, in particular found great inspiration the The Saga of the Volsungs, including the sword that was reforged, rings of power, the dragon on the hoard, and the creature Gollum. So, too, Richard Wagner drew heavily upon the Norse Volsung material in composing the Ring cycle as is discussed elsewhere in the Introduction to this translation.

Among other subjects, the comprehensive Introduction to this translation includes:


Representations of the Volsung Story in Norse Art

Myths, Heroes, and Social Realities

History and Legend: Burgundians, Huns, Goths, and Sigurd the Dragon Slayer

A Note on Richard Wagner and the Saga of the Volsungs

http://www.viking.ucla.edu/volsungs/overview.html

	01-01-2003 03:51									#72
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I enjoyed the first movie without a thought about race. In the second movie, my girlfriend pointed it out that theirs no Asians, blacks or indians. Its nieve that the director, producer did not have any roles in these movies for other minorities. Again its fantasy, written a many years before but its no excuse for them to do this.
Well thats my thoughts. Happy new years to all

	01-01-2003 04:00									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan I enjoyed the first movie without a thought about race. In the second movie, my girlfriend pointed it out that theirs no Asians, blacks or indians. Its nieve that the director, producer did not have any roles in these movies for other minorities. Again its fantasy, written a many years before but its no excuse for them to do this. Well thats my thoughts. Happy new years to all

So, Legolas, should have been Chinese?

ACK!

	01-01-2003 04:35									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski So, Legolas, should have been Chinese? ACK!

Sauron

I beleive he is Atilla the Hun.

	01-01-2003 04:58									#75
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Heck, I'd say the movie included lots of different races. Let's see there were people, elves, orcs, dwarves, ents...

	01-01-2003 05:54									#76
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quote: Tolkien is anti-democratic and anti-egalitarian. Men know their 'place', servant-master relations are glorified, particularly all the loyal and dutiful servants (christianity? thou good and loyal servant...), rulership is passed through the Blood, for example if anyone in Tolkien has the blood of numenor, you just know that the odds are they will be more noble, taller, stronger, and fairer skinned than 'fallen' man.

You are right about that and that's what's annoying me most in Tolkien, chiefly in the Silmarillion, where you can see the grand scale of things. If you take the examples of Melkor, Feanor and Turin, they all have in common that they are far more potent than their peers and in addition they are ambitious and rebellious. They will not submit to what they are "supposed to" do. And they will pay for it. Of course one may say that all non-human beings in ME are bound by their fate, and fate in ME is definitely skewed in favor of the "loyal and dutyful servants". Of course this adds another beauty to the masterpiece, since it enhances the tragic element: everybody reading the Silm is actually more or less with the baddies, because they are much more interesting than the others. Man has the ability to shape his own future, so Illuvatar's wish does not matter much, once the 4rth Age commences.

Oh and of course, one can't really understand the beauty of LotR if one hasn't previously read the Silmarillion. This is mostly evident in the last scenes of the trilogy, when everybody leaves for the West...

	01-01-2003 06:38									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan In the second movie, my girlfriend pointed it out that theirs no Asians, blacks or indians. Its nieve that the director, producer did not have any roles in these movies for other minorities....Again its fantasy, written a many years before but its no excuse for them to do this.

For better or worse, its a PC world we live in...
...and unfortunately, whoever gets slotted as the bad guy would complain about unfairness.

quote: Originally posted by Civfan If you take the examples of Melkor, Feanor and Turin, they all have in common that they are far more potent than their peers and in addition they are ambitious and rebellious. They will not submit to what they are "supposed to" do. And they will pay for it. Of course one may say that all non-human beings in ME are bound by their fate, and fate in ME is definitely skewed in favor of the "loyal and dutyful servants". Of course this adds another beauty to the masterpiece, since it enhances the tragic element: everybody reading the Silm is actually more or less with the baddies, because they are much more interesting than the others. Man has the ability to shape his own future, so Illuvatar's wish does not matter much, once the 4rth Age commences.

Agreed - Everyone who sees the movies should read the Silmarillion - a fantastic book and it really adds to the appreciation and understanding of LOTR.

It can be argued that this is an outpouring of Tolkien's Christian faith too. (The Silmarillion greatly parallels the Fall in Genesis) and by the end of the Third Age, (ie our present time) the will of God (Illuvatar) does not matter much in the world. Interesting to note that the pride of both Elves and Man eventually lead to destruction.

Yeah, I know, Tolkien hated allegory, but it can be argued that it still can/will seep into whatever work he creates.

And that is probably going to open another can of worms in the discussion here - Tolkien may be viewed as a religious elitist. (not that I hold to that though)

	08-01-2003 04:43									#78
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The thing that fired me up in The Silmarillion was that the Numenoreans were expected to do whatever the Valar told them to without question. Even though Men supposedly have the ability to affect their fate "beyond the Music of the Ainur", the Valar still expect them to not use their Iluvatar-given brains.

	08-01-2003 04:47									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan Again its fantasy, written a many years before but its no excuse for them to do this.

People are *****ing about them changing the book enough as is without the director making pointless changes like this one.

	08-01-2003 06:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG eeeer Sava how on earth did you think that i actually agreed with the quoted text?

Because he is Faded Glory stupid, Mark. Just slap him a little. Only good thing for him.

	08-01-2003 06:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sava because I'm dumb, slow, and easily confused...

Oops. I take by my comments, since you already were self-deprecatory.

	08-01-2003 08:16									#82
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Its all to do with drugs, fools. Look at the mushroom and weed references.

It's obvious that the Hobbits represent the Hash dealers, being blissful, always hungry and lazy.

Gandolf is denigrated for smoking weed since the Wizards all believe in the hallucigenic 'peak' experiences from the oft-referenced mushrooms. They believe in magic rings (of mushrooms) and massive demons and dragons that chase them around the room ---a bad trip or what?? Saruman allies with Sauron, as he thinks that there still might be a market for shrooms after Sauron becomes the premier dealer in Middle Earth. The alliance of Sauron and Saruman is supposed to an allegory of the Ronnie/Reggie Kray partnership, simular names and all.

The Ring of power represents cocaine. Cocaine makes you feel all powerful and like a master of the universe(hence the whole power trip thing). It is also highly addictive, and sought after(why Boromir etc scream for it, and Frodo starts to get effected by it). Overdoses of the drug give a schizophrenic, deranged illness (Golem), as well as involuntary movement (Frodo).

What the film represents is the return of cocaine onto the marketplace, and all the other dealers of drugs seek to destroy it, before it muscles in on their patch. The heroes must fight against deranged addicts (wraiths) and ganglanders (Orcs) to destroy the recipe forever, and hopefully remove Sauron, the Middle Earth equivilent of John Gotti (or the Krays) from their patches.

Lord of Rings? More like Lord of the Baggies.

	08-01-2003 08:24									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sten Sture Saruman is Nazism, the Uruk-hai were the SS; Sauron is Communism, Mordor is the USSR, the black witch of Arnor is Stalin; the elves of Lauthlorien are the French; Gondor is Europe; Aragon is Eisenhower, the Dunedin are the US, and the army of lost souls are Euro emigres to the RSA, NZ, Oz and the States; Harad is Japan; Pippin is the Irish, Merry is the Scots, Sam is the Welsh, and Frodo the English. So somehow the pathetic English midgets win WW2 by throwing a bit of gold in a furnace and the American fighting forces get second billing. Typical.

vg

I think you may be in for a visit from one or two highly offended elves however.

	08-01-2003 08:59									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Axi But Melkor went to Numenor and corrupted the Numenorean men and made them so arrogant as to try to attack Valinor.

It was actually Sauron that went to Numenor and corrupted the Numenoreans. Morgoth was chained up outside the earth at the end of the First Age.

You can call me his royal highness, King of the Geeks...