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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by MyraeJ
I'm curious now, Ramo, are you saying that the citizens of a country don't 'own' it? If so, please explain who does. |
"Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
http://www.usconstitution.org/Great...splay.cfm?&ID=2
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"We hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness."
If these words are to have any meaning, then they must apply to everyone. The struggle for freedom is ongoing. . . .
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MyraeJ
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OK, Zachiel, if we can agree that the citizen of a country should determine it's law (they 'own' it) subject to such restrictions as the constitution, then what if the citizens themselves decide that the doors should be shut? Most polls show Americans in favor of strongly restricting immigration. This includes recent immigrants, who apparently wish to shut the door behind them. BTW Mexican immigration laws are amongst the most restrictive.
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MyraeJ
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"People own the country, not the state." If this state does not mirrors it's peoples intent, then by all means show me one that does. Our government IS elected by the people, and mostly represents them, when they can be bothered to pay attention.
"The state has absolutely no justification to cause poverty and suffering through authoritarian immigration policies. " What evidence do you have that such a thing is taking place? Do you mean that illegal immigrants earn less money than citizens? AMAZING!!! Why would a large group of largely unskilled workers with limited language skills and forced to avoid legal jobs be in such a predicament? You must mean that states should not be allowed to control their own borders, right? Please state THAT for the record so that everyone can judge the rest of your comments in that context.
Frankley speaking, I'm not sure is human beings are mature enough for Democracy, in answer to your genocide question, but I'd rather people had a say in their own futures rather than leave it to the hands of bureaucrats. BTW have you considered that this illegal immigration has artificially suppressed wages in the unskilled sector? And who suffers from that? African Americans of course. Our canary in the coal mine....
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
If this state does not mirrors it's peoples intent, then by all means show me one that does. |
You miss the point. The state, not the people, is exercising its authority to oppress the people of the world. Many American citizens have absolutely no problems with associating with these people. Why's it your business to tell me who I can and can't associate with?
quote:
You must mean that states should not be allowed to control their own borders, right? Please state THAT for the record so that everyone can judge the rest of your comments in that context. |
Yes. There isn't much the state should be allowed to do. 
quote:
What evidence do you have that such a thing is taking place? |
1. Our immigration barriers are undermining economic development in both the US and the developing world, thus leaving these countries in perpetual poverty. More labor is vital for economic development here and in the rest of the developed world, and Western education and remittances is vital for economic development in the developing world.
2. Immigration barriers take away one of the fundamental freedoms of a human being, the freedom to travel. That means people who aren't lucky enough to live in a place where one has a good opportunity to learn, live, and work are screwed, and so are their children, and their grandchildren, etc., etc. I consider this an oppression nearly unparalleled in this country.
3. Both legal and illegal immigrants can be considerably screwed over by their employers by holding their legal status over them (threatening to call the INS or screwing with their visas), thus getting wages considerably below market. This has a side effect of artificially undermining the wages of both unskilled and to a lesser extent skilled labor.
4. Immigrants (regardless of legality) have very little political freedom in this country. I hope you understand that political freedom is a good thing.
quote:
BTW have you considered that this illegal immigration has artificially suppressed wages in the unskilled sector? And who suffers from that? African Americans of course. Our canary in the coal mine.... |
My aren't we self-righteous. It's their illegal status that's artifically reducing their wages, not their immigration. In other words, the policies you support are causing this oppression.
And BTW, immigration adds jobs, not takes away jobs. It takes more businesses to handle more people, and the legal unskilled labor in Southern California and Texas isn't enough to handle the demand anyways...
quote:
Frankley speaking, I'm not sure is human beings are mature enough for Democracy, in answer to your genocide question, but I'd rather people had a say in their own futures rather than leave it to the hands of bureaucrats. |
What does that mean? Either you would support the genocide or you wouldn't. Answer the question.
And where did the hands of bureaucrats come from? 
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TomCB
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Sorry I have been distracted from this little debate for some time.
The bottom line is that you don't seem to get the basic fact that a flood of immigrants who are unwilling to assimulate, and even long to change their new home into something more like their own home, will do nothing more than turn new into old.
These immigrants would move from area to area, wrecking everything in their paths like locusts.
Constantly searching for a better place and then converting into less than it was.
It is not the color of ones skin that has determined the level of civilization advancements.
It is the basic founding blocks of the civilization is the peoples abiltiy to share certain attributes.
Language, currency, legal system, and whatever code of "honor" they wish to addhere to are just some.
The damage done by the rash of white collar crime and political scandal is hurting our civilization far more than most of us can even conceive at present.
Mexico, as an examply, is rife with corruption and an "elite class" that in only concerned with enriching themselves.
That is hardly the country I want to live in or even admire.
You speak of the "right" of people to go where opportunities exist.
Where is that "right" written?
The countries of England, the US and to a lesser extent France, are the only countries that have put forth the idea of individual rights.
How anyone would want to water down or weaken these nations is beyond me.
Populations such as the Japanese and American Blacks that have embraced the western lifestyle have thrived, those that resist, flounder.
If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, perhaps you should relocate to a country like Mexico and campaign to make it more western.
Is the US perfect, not at all. But our failings are due to the adaption of liberal ideas, which, without exception, have caused long term harm to this country and every country they are being adapted.
Read the 10th Amendment of the Bill of Rights, and take a minute to think about the implications of it.
Let it sink in just how much we Americans ignore it.
That is my campaign.
It also sounds to me that you detest government in total. I for one am no lover of government, but do understand that some government is necessary to avoid anarchy.
There is a saying.
Be careful of what you wish for, you may get it.
And if you wish to convert a chunk of the US into a mexico like state, why wait to see the results, just go to Mexico and see if you like it. I have a feeling that, like so many illegal immigrants, you will decide that the US is a far better place and maybe, just maybe, you will realize how good you have it here and stop wishing for so much of the foolishness I have read from you on here.
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TomCB
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If all side would adhere that may be fine, but the leftists will and have used the government gun to enforce their will upon the rest of us.
They continue to try to change the rules and force us to react.
Just in the last few days, the new Democratic leader of the House requested that the S.F. Federal building accept Mexican IDs.
These are issued to people that cannot get legal ones and can easily be forged.
This shows the level of stupidity of the left.
Why require ID's at all if you are willing to take just about anything as ID?
The true astonishing thing to those of us not from the left coast, is that they agreed to do it.
This is one of the things that cannot be trusted to the local or even state governments.
The elected officials, being so eager to get re-elected, do anything to purchase votes.
The upside to what is currently going on in CA.
Massive social programs and inept leadership is finally running CA so far into debt that the silient masses are going to have to get involved.
The tax burdens that will be inflicted will drive the most productive out.
The masses have been told that the high taxes are needed to support necessary services, when in fact those services are less than 20% of the total taxes collected.
It is so much fun to see the results of liberalism from afar.
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TomCB
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The First amendment does not say anything about language, either for or against.
You can talk in any langauge you wish, we just don't have to print forms for you in anything other than the offical language.
Nor do we have to provide teachers or government employees to help you access social programs.
As a matter of fact, we should not, that would encourage all to speak English and help millions assimulate into this culture, just like the million of Italians, Irish and Eastern Europeans before them.
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TomCB
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Ok,
Try Article IV Section 4.
"The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence."
One could argue, given the predispostion of the immigrants, that they are invading, and thus we are obligate to stop them.
They are entilitle to "life LIberty and Persuit of Happiness" They are just not entitled to it here, otherwise, all immigration laws would be illegal.
Lets also not forget that the US Constitution does not extend all over the world, and thus not everyone enjoys it's protections.
Also, according to the papers of the Founding Fathers, they considered "citizenship" to be of no small importance.
All in all, that was a pretty stupid argument.
I for one, really expect better of you.
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TomCB
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As far as the immigration goes, it really does not matter "peaceful" or otherwise. It is illegal and therefore must be stopped.
If we do not, why enforce any laws at all?
One can not chose what laws to enforce, that is called selective prosecution.
And as far as the Constitution goes, you should try to quote it instead of the Declaration of Independence.
The Constitution is LAW, the Declaration of Indepedence is more of an appeal to King George.
If were to enforce "unalienable rights", we would be at war forever.
Our writings apply to us and only us.
My "hatred" is more of disgust.
These forums are filled with people that think bashing the only people keeping them free is the thing to do.
Paranoia? None. I just love watching liberal governments fall flat on their faces, like CA is now and Europe will later.
We do however, have to be wary of leftists ideals seeping into and destroying our country, just like we should be wary of certain right wing groups.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
The bottom line is that you don't seem to get the basic fact that a flood of immigrants who are unwilling to assimulate, and even long to change their new home into something more like their own home, will do nothing more than turn new into old.
These immigrants would move from area to area, wrecking everything in their paths like locusts.
Constantly searching for a better place and then converting into less than it was.
It is not the color of ones skin that has determined the level of civilization advancements.
It is the basic founding blocks of the civilization is the peoples abiltiy to share certain attributes.
Language, currency, legal system, and whatever code of "honor" they wish to addhere to are just some.
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Bullshit.
Turn back the clock a century or two ago, and people were saying precisely the same thing about Southern and East European immigration. And you know, this immigration is exactly what caused the US to turn into an economic powerhouse. Mexican immigration is good for our economy, it's good for their economy, and stopping it is a rejection of humanity and freedom for the reasons I've already stated.
quote:
Mexico, as an examply, is rife with corruption and an "elite class" that in only concerned with enriching themselves.
That is hardly the country I want to live in or even admire. |
How does this have anything to do with the argument? Their political and economic systems are oppressive, so we should force them to stay there?
quote:
You speak of the "right" of people to go where opportunities exist.
Where is that "right" written? |
I never said it was a legal right, simply that the freedom to travel is a vital important freedom. It insures people don't starve and so forth.
It's a universally recognized moral right, as indicated by its place in the UN Declaration of Human Rights.
quote:
The countries of England, the US and to a lesser extent France, are the only countries that have put forth the idea of individual rights. |
Utter bollocks. And none of these countries are particularly good at defending civil liberties.
quote:
If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, perhaps you should relocate to a country like Mexico and campaign to make it more western. |
Last time I checked, Mexico is a Western state.
Why should I have to move when oppression could be more effectively reduced on our side of the border?
quote:
Is the US perfect, not at all. But our failings are due to the adaption of liberal ideas, which, without exception, have caused long term harm to this country and every country they are being adapted. |
If you are so motivated to better the lives of others, why don't you move to a countrly like Sweden and campaign to turn it into a Western state?
quote:
It also sounds to me that you detest government in total. I for one am no lover of government, but do understand that some government is necessary to avoid anarchy. |
I'm an anarchist, but that doesn't mean I reject all government. It just needs to be severely limited in its authority.
quote:
And if you wish to convert a chunk of the US into a mexico like state |
Where did I say that? I don't like Mexico's government any more than the US' government.
quote:
I have a feeling that, like so many illegal immigrants, you will decide that the US is a far better place and maybe, just maybe, you will realize how good you have it here and stop wishing for so much of the foolishness I have read from you on here. |
Yeah, tyranny and oppression is good! I might miss it some day, or something.
And it's funny how you haven't been able to refute my "foolishness."
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tandeetaylor
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Las Vegas
Apr 2001
time: 21:24
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Zachriel and Ramo 
I am so tired of this bullshit.
Who are you to say what such a large and diverse group of people wants or doesn't want and how can do define what "wanting to be an American" means anyway?? Stop using that stupid argument of "immigrants don't want to be Americans" until you can prove that statement and define what it means...
And of all the Arabs I know, only one chose to change their name from Hussein to Jason. Most people aren't ashamed of their culture, nor are they afraid of your reactions to their names. Why is Mike more American than Mohammed?? Can someone please explain what the **** it means to be an American?
And as to immigrants being a burden on the American ecomony (  ), this was taken from the American Immigration Lawyers Association webpage:
quote:
Immigrants collectively earn $240 billion a year, pay $90 billion a year in taxes, and receive $5 billion in welfare.
New immigrants must prove that they won't be a burden before they are allowed to enter the United States. Compared to the native-born population, immigrants are more likely to be employed, save more of their earnings, and are more likely to start new businesses.
Immigrants have a slightly higher per capita income than natives and a slightly lower household income. But, their income levels rise over time: Among those entering before 1980, median household income in 1989 was $35,733 (vs. $30,176 for natives) and per capita income was $19,423 (vs. $14,367 for natives).
Non-refugee immigrants of working age are less prone to welfare than natives. |
Last edited by tandeetaylor on 12-01-2003 at 11:26
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tandeetaylor
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Las Vegas
Apr 2001
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCB
As far as the immigration goes, it really does not matter "peaceful" or otherwise. It is illegal and therefore must be stopped. |
This is so silly. If something shouldn't be against the law it is not a "must be stopped" situation, it's a "law must be changed" situation.
quote:
If we do not, why enforce any laws at all?
One can not chose what laws to enforce, that is called selective prosecution. |
Laws should be just. It's not about choosing whether to enforce a law, it's about choosing whether a law should exist.
quote:
And as far as the Constitution goes, you should try to quote it instead of the Declaration of Independence. |
What's the matter with the Declaration of Independence if it's relevant?
quote:
If were to enforce "unalienable rights", we would be at war forever.
Our writings apply to us and only us. |
It's not about making sure no one else violates unalienable rights (and why the **** did you put that in quotes, anyway?), it's about not violating them ourselves.
quote:
My "hatred" is more of disgust.
These forums are filled with people that think bashing the only people keeping them free is the thing to do.
Paranoia? None. I just love watching liberal governments fall flat on their faces, like CA is now and Europe will later.
We do however, have to be wary of leftists ideals seeping into and destroying our country, just like we should be wary of certain right wing groups. |
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tandeetaylor
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Las Vegas
Apr 2001
time: 21:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Making English the official language would not violate the 1st Amendment in any way or form. Dictating official business be done in a certain language is not criminalizing speech.
To say otherwise is utterly sily.
There is nothing unconstitutional with making an official language. |
I don't believe he said that. I believe he said it would be unconstitutional to make it illegal to speak another language at all.
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tandeetaylor
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Las Vegas
Apr 2001
time: 21:24
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And let's make blue the official color of the United States while we're at it!
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TomCB
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(Huge Heavy Sigh while shaking head)
ONCE AGAIN, try listening this time. Immigrants USED to try to assimulate, now they try to change US.
They USED to ADD, now they try to CONVERT.
I have no problem with immigration if the immigrants learn the langauge and try to assimluate.
As far as all this "humanity" Bull.
Using that agrument, the US should be shipping food all over the world because people are starving, even if their leaders are starving them or it would destroy local farmers.
There is NO RIGHT to travel and relocate.
You make things up in order to help your argument.
Nations have always had the right (which mean legal, or it can not be called a right) to protect their borders.
Do you know of any countries that are better at protecting civil rights than the US and Britain? Man, what planet do you live on?
As far as me being motivate.
Not at all, they can live how they want to. I will just sit back and watch them fall apart.
FAR more entertaining.
If you think the US is filled with tyranny, you must know of some Utopia that no one else has heard of. Where is it.
Converting US into part of Mexico. You did say that you liked the idea.
As you say you are an Anarchist, I will start to ignore you, as you clearly are not based in the real world.
Constitutional rigth to make an official language.
Actually, there is no right given to the Federal government to do so, and therefore it does not have that right. A Constitutional amendment would be required to do so legally.
I may have said something before that was a bit different, I am not sure. However, after thinking about it, I found no power given to the Federal government that would allow it.
That does not mean they wouldn't do it, they do all sorts of things that are not Constitutional.
Regardless, no US government at any level could make non English illegal. All they could do is not pay attention to people that refused to speak English.
GADS, I agree with Ramo on the penelty part of offical languages.
I hope it is him coming around and not me sliding into the abyss.
As long as the official color is not UN Blue I am willing to discuss it.
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MyraeJ
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How did it get to be conventional wisdom that all cultures are equal? Does it take a genius to look at the poverty and corruption of Mexico and pronounce our culture superior? The childlike wonder shown here is admirable in a child, but not in adults who should be able to make decisions based on the evidence. If not, I hope that you don't vote. Might I suggest that you read TRUST by Francis Fukayama. It might explain the WHY our culture is better, and why it is getting worse.
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by MyraeJ
How did it get to be conventional wisdom that all cultures are equal? |
Culture is the pursuit of happiness. If people can't keep aspects of their culture, how can you say that they are free? What part of this statement do you disagree with?
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
It doesn't say just the Americans, or just those who agree with the majority. It is very important, especially for Americans, but for all people, to not look down on others. Take America as an example: On one side; the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Bill of Rights, a Civil War fought over slavery, the Civil Rights movement, Universal Suffrage. On the other side; slavery, ethnic cleansing of Native Americans, the Mexican War, the Spanish-American War, Jim Crow, oppression of immigrant populations, funding death squads in Latin America, funneling arms to Sadaam Hussein and radical groups in Afghanistan. Like all cultures, America is a mixed bag. We hope that we are remembered fondly for the "better angels of our nature," and not, well you know.
How deep can your historical memory be when one forgets that being Irish or Chinese was once a terrible ordeal in America? And that voices, just like yours were raised in protest over immigration of the Germans, the French, the Jews, the Italians, the Japanese, the Russians, and now the Kurds and the Somalis.
And yet, these people made lives here and contributed the best aspects of their culture to the American culture. Do we outlaw Saint Patricks Day as a foreign intrusion on our society? Is not their suffering and perseverence not a part of what makes America what it is?
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by DinoDoc
quote:
What part of this statement do you disagree with? |
The fact that you keep quoting something of no legal signifigance. |
Thanks for the direct answer.
What made the Founding Fathers more than just a bunch of rabble seizing power? Why does the Declaration refer to a decent respect to the opinions of mankind? Why is it such a seminal document?
The Declaration lays out the legal case for when a people have the right to overthrow an establish order (and when they don't!). It clearly establishes that government is subservient to the unalienable rights of the people.
to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it
The Declaration of Independence lays the legal framework necessary to overthrow the previous legally-instituted government. Read it. It really is important.
http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hal...eclaration.html
Addendum: The Declaration of Independence can be read as a syllogism. Once you accept the basic premise of Liberty, the logical conclusion is Revolutionary.
Last edited by Zachriel on 13-01-2003 at 00:30
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04-01-2003 20:34
On the other hand, it would be appropriate and constitutional to encourage the learning of Spanish or other languages. Indeed, most public schools offer foreign language courses.
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