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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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There are a few people who dream of a new country called Aztlan to be formed by Latinos in the Southwest United States. A few people dream of a separate country called Pacifica to be formed from the northwestern U.S., while New England once considered secession before the Civil War. However, the only serious armed resurrection occured when white Southerners fired on Fort Sumter causing a war that consumed millions of lives. Many of their ancestors still fly that flag of secession.
No serious political leader, North or South of the border, advocates secession of the Southwest U.S. as either practical or even a good thing, though a few academics dream whistfully of such a day. Certainly, they have a right to dream. In point of fact, of the many Latinos I know, all work to assimilate as quickly as possible, while still retaining those aspects of their culture that they love. They want to vote. They want to become a part of the larger American society.
However, in the United States, many conservative political commentators are using the discussion of Aztlan to cause the very social divisions they decry. Ironic. The Americans steal vast tracts of Mexican lands, then (some) worry about a peaceful people stealing it back. Guilt, perhaps?
Meanwhile, Richmond Virginia will get its first statue of Abraham Lincoln. A large and vocal group object. They fly the flag of secession to protest.
So who are the loyal Americans?
Edited for spelling.  Doh!
Last edited by Zachriel on 03-01-2003 at 07:22
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Zachriel
Which actually makes the point. In a free society, it is not really a fair question. No one must prove their loyalty by taking a particular political viewpoint. People can express their ideas, they can petition for change, they speak in any language, or they are not truly free. |
Which parts of the southwest are they working on freeing?
I wish you luck hombre!
I didn't know about the statue of Lincoln, where did you hear about it? As far as i know it's not an issue, but then I haven't heard of the project either.
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Which parts of the southwest are they working on freeing?
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Aztlan is the mythical place of origin of the Aztec peoples, which is commonly believed to be somewhere in the U.S. Southwest. In the 1840's, the U.S. made a land grab attack against Mexico during a time when there was politically instability in Mexico, capturing "Aztlan".
No serious leader advocates secession. To quote the Declaration of Independence,
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shown, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
However, a lot of U.S. right-wing groups want to make a divisive issue of a small minority flying an Aztlan Flag, as an Aztec cultural symbol, with little real political (secessionist) meaning. The American culture is very strong. 
This thread was meant to solve a being "off-topic problem" in the Civ3 Forum, by providing an alternate discussion area. Didn't work too well for that purpose.
quote:
I didn't know about the statue of Lincoln, where did you hear about it? As far as i know it's not an issue, but then I haven't heard of the project either. |
Richmond Times-Dispatch.
Not everyone, of course, is ready to embrace a statue of Lincoln in Richmond. Brag Bolling, commander of the Virginia Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans, expressed strong opposition to it. "I consider this to be a federal government-sponsored and sanctioned act of insensitivity to place a statue of Lincoln in the former capital of the Confederacy, where literally thousands of Virginians died fighting the invasion of our state which was led by Abraham Lincoln."
http://richmondtimesdispatch.com/fr...GBUIYB26AD.html
Edited for spelling. Doh!
Last edited by Zachriel on 03-01-2003 at 07:45
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Dr Strangelove
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I thought that the ancestral homelnd of the Aztecs was in the south of the Guadalajara district.
The article makes it clear that the statue was the work of a non-governmental society that is actually based in Richmond. It hasn't been a big deal here, but folks in Lynchburg consider even Richmonders to be foreigners. Our local papers don't carry that much statewide news.
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TomCB
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The idea that certain groups want the return land to mexico seems silly, however, take a problem fertilize it by ignoring it and water it with tears, and soon you will have a huge thriving issue.
The bottom line is that we as a people are too cowardly to insist on English as the national language, even though Mexico has no such inhibitions.
Also, we are allowing something like a million people to come here and work illegally, and then enjoy the social programs meant for our own people.
We are getting plundered by this.
I am all in favor of immigration, as long as they have a skill to bring and know the language and plan on staying.
I shudder to think of al the things this country would not have if not for immigration.
The reason only right wing groups are making this an issue is that only right wing groups care what happens to this country, or rather that this country keeps it's ideals in place.
It is the left that is pushing multiculturalism.
And that is doing such harm that if not stopped, we will degrade into duplicates of the countries these people come from.
I am sure there are plenty of immigrants that want to join the greatest nation in the history of the world, however, there are many times more that just want to come here and make their own country here.
Don't believe me.
Walk through a mall and see how many different languages you you here.
Look at signs throughout many cities and government forms, see the different languages?
Is this Aztlan ever going to happen, not likely.
However, if we do nothing, it just may.
As far as feeling guilty, not a bit.
The natives were not doing anything productive with the continent when the Europeans got here anyway.
Might may not always be right, but it is still might.
I refuse to entertain any ideas of returning of land to any group anywhere when it happened more than 75-100 years ago.
At that point the people that lost it are long gone and the people that took it are as well.
They need to move on and get over it.
This goes for ther Southerns that still dream of a Confederate state as well.
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Zachriel
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U.S.A.
Dec 2001
time: 00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCB
The reason only right wing groups are making this an issue is that only right wing groups care what happens to this country, or rather that this country keeps it's ideals in place.
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Answering only the second part of that statement , everyone has a slightly different viewpoint of what this country's ideals might be, but there are some truths which nearly all of us see as self-evident, including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
quote:
It is the left that is pushing multiculturalism.
. . .
Don't believe me.
Walk through a mall and see how many different languages you you here.
Look at signs throughout many cities and government forms, see the different languages?
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You answer your own objection. Multiculturalism is a fact. To state the obvious and to propose solutions to such problems doesn't define one's politics.
A country is not free if people can't speak in their own language. Who are we to dictate what other people do? Wasn't that partly what the Protestant Reformation was about? The translation of the Bible into the native tongues, like German and English, opening up a world of knowledge to the common people through Literacy and Printing Press. Languages evolve. They are born, live, and die. So what.
On the other hand, America is a very strong culture and continuing integration will have a very Norteamericano flavor. In fact, nearly all immigrants already learn English as fast as they can because it is in their best interest. And many Latin American children already learn English in school. It doesn't require coercion.
Ultimately, freedom doesn't mean a thing if it comes at the expense of someone else's freedom.
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TomCB
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As far as pursuit of happiness goes, as long as their pursuit does not interfere with mine, fine. But since my tax dollars now have to go to multi-language forms, signs and teachers in school, I have to say sorry, learn the language or go home.
The original ideal of the US have been getting torn down constantly ever since the 1860's at least.
Those ideals are self reliance, not government programs, and the basic principle that you can work to make the lives of you and your family better without being interfered as long as you don't trample on anyone else.
That has gone the way of the dodo, although recent and consistent "conservative" gains do point in the right direction.
To say the language is not important is to say that you actually don't understand that language is one of the basic things that keep a civilization together.
English is the language of the VAST majority of Americans and we should not have to accommodate by force illegal immigrants.
The problem is that western courts may have rulings that will bear weight on mid-western and eastern courts, and that is the real issue.
If the west wants to spend it's money on multi language whatever, fine, but with the court rulings, I now have to.
I live within 8 miles of the largest Arab population outside of the middle East, and for the most part, have had positive relations with those I have worked with, in fact, they seem to have a higher sense of "honor" than most other groups. They take American names for instance.
Can you imagine how many mikes there are?
Every Mohammed is a mike in the US.
Aside of the terrorist threats we now must be aware of, there was never any real issue.
They are not coming here trying to change us.
They may stay to themselves and that is fine, but there has never been any attempt to force language or ways upon us.
Just NEVER try to date a guys sister.....BIG MISTAKE...LOL
You asked who are we to dictate anything to others.
WE ARE THE CITIZENS AND TAXPAYERS.
WE ARE THE OWNERS.
THAT GIVES US THE RIGHT TO DICTATE ANYTHING IF THEY WANT TO COME HERE AND ENJOY THE PLENTY OF THE CIVILIZATION WE BUILT.
That who.
Slavery was once a fact, would it have been right to just go along with it?
Terrorism is a fact, should we just say "oh well"?
Just because something is a fact does not mean it should be.
If you actually can't comprehend why this is so important, then why not tell us how far you would be willing to go to accommodate immigrants that want to change the US into their own liking.
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"
Thomas Jefferson
And Multiculturalism in Pure Evil.
It attempts to replace more productive cultures by elevating inferior (less productive) cultures.
It is anti-evolution.
It will banish more and more people to living lives that are not what they could be.
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chairmanmeow
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Redneckland, People's Republic of Maryland
Aug 2002
time: 00:24
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The 1st Amendment is often used as an excuse for immigrants not learning English. They say that since the 1st Amendment guarantees free speech, that it would not allow English to be the official language. The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." In that, it is most likely meant that the freedom of speech applies to the content of the speech, not the way it is delivered. Therefore, the government cannot arrest you for saying something they don't like, but they can say that you should say it in English.
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Ramo
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Austin, Texas, USA
Oct 1999
time: 23:24
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quote:
Did you mean regions. I dont see how a confederation of cities would work on the vast scale as the US. |
Well, the cities would organize at a regional level, and they would organize at the national level. The point is that the national and regional levels would have comparatively little authority.
quote:
The 1st Amendment is often used as an excuse for immigrants not learning English. They say that since the 1st Amendment guarantees free speech, that it would not allow English to be the official language. The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." In that, it is most likely meant that the freedom of speech applies to the content of the speech, not the way it is delivered. Therefore, the government cannot arrest you for saying something they don't like, but they can say that you should say it in English. |
This is quite frightening in both the idiocy of the argument and the idea that someone would want to criminalize a language. You can rest assured that the founders never meant anything of the sort. 
quote:
But since my tax dollars now have to go to multi-language forms, signs and teachers in school, I have to say sorry, learn the language or go home. |
Multi-lingual forms help bring in revenue for the state. So the Spanish-speakers in this country can pay for your English-speaking teachers. And signs. And forms.
Why do we need English versions of them?
Why don't you learn their language, and why the **** is this country your home any more than theirs?
quote:
English is the language of the VAST majority of Americans and we should not have to accommodate by force illegal immigrants. |
No one's forcing you to accommadate anything. You and other authoritarians are forcing people who would be a boon to our economy to live in poverty.
quote:
WE ARE THE CITIZENS AND TAXPAYERS.
WE ARE THE OWNERS. |
Immigrants, illegal and legal, contribute quite a bit in terms of tax. They are taxpayers as well. Many also are our labor pool, and provide our services for minimal costs (since the INS is bent on killing their families' futures, they have to settle for less). Others are owners, bringing in important technical skills not prominent enough in the domestic population.
And there is no we. There aren't enough fools to support your oppressive, draconian proposal.
quote:
THAT GIVES US THE RIGHT TO DICTATE ANYTHING IF THEY WANT TO COME HERE AND ENJOY THE PLENTY OF THE CIVILIZATION WE BUILT. |
You've built jack, drop the pretention.
quote:
"Evil flourishes when good men do nothing"
Thomas Jefferson |
On that, we can agree.
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MyraeJ
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I'm curious now, Ramo, are you saying that the citizens of a country don't 'own' it? If so, please explain who does.
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31-12-2002 17:59
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