31-01-2003 05:55									#31
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LzPrst, to date, our Wise Men have studied or acquired:

Ceremonial Burial (Starting Tech, 4000BC)
Alphabet (Starting Tech, 4000BC)
Bronze Working (Researched, ? BC)
Masonry (Trade, ? BC) (From ND, for Alphabet)
Pottery (Trade, ? BC) (From ND, for Alphabet)
The Wheel (Trade, ? BC) (From GoW, for Alphabet)
Warrior Code (Trade, ? BC) (From GoW, for Alphabet)
Mysticism (Goodie Hut, 2510 BC)
Iron Working (Trade, 2470 BC) (From Lux, for Alphabet + 25 Gold)
Writing (Researched, 1990 BC)

This thread was intended as a place to discuss directions for further studies.

	31-01-2003 10:59									#32
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Next turn we will finish our mastery of writing, being the first known civilization to create such a system of putting thoughts and ideas down into permanent form. We must celebrate this acomplishment and discuss how it can be put to use.

We must also decide what next to learn.

Shall we learn mapmaking, as has been our plan for ages, or shall we change gears and go for Polytheism thereby beating Lux Invicta to this seminal knowledge?

--Togas

	31-01-2003 11:06									#33
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My personal vote is for Polytheism (let Lux go for Literacy), but it doesn't really matter.

	31-01-2003 15:51									#34
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It seems it would be wise to seek the further approval of the gods. Especially for our ruler Togas. If that means contacting more of them, then so be it.
The great temple we're building in Madrid will cause more gods to flock to our support and strengthen our people. Surely it can be the only path to choose.
Why would we want to map the ocean sea anyway, there cant possibly be anything out there...

	31-01-2003 16:28									#35
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I wont repeat myself again (you can see what I said about that in the top of page 2 ) just want to remember that I recomend to investigate Polytheism and then Monarchy.

	31-01-2003 22:10									#36
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Great Despot Togas,

If we want to have the possibility of building ships, Map Making is necessary.

We assume that other lands are near to our East and that with sailing ships we could discover paths to find other peoples and to trade with them.

If we were knowing the Map Making secret we could in addition try to build a great Wonder, perhaps the first in our World, as my grandparent Astronicus was projecting : The Great Lighthouse.

With this wonder in our coastal city, Barcelona, we could traverse the seas more easily, faster than all the other tribes could do, and we could trade squid, other spanish products and maps with our still unknown neighbours.

Other researchs, like Polyteism or Monarchy could be too long to discover from now, and we could possibly never take the mentioned advantage over the other civs if we choose to go for these other secrets.

Could the spirits be favorable to my request !

Martin Astronicus the Younger
Chief Architect of Spain
Governor of Barcelona

	31-01-2003 22:57									#37
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With this "Tech Alliance", we might be asked to start to research something else. I say that we go for Monarchy, as that will help the reduction of the corruption that is felt throughout our Nation. We can also have the extra food and trade from this change.

Eta Tamali

	31-01-2003 23:38									#38
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We know Legoland is bee-lining for Map Making. Since they are all on their own, they do not have to devote early resources to defense. At the pace they are REXing at, I would be surprised if they don't create a couple of wonder cities. I don't think anyone is likely to beat them to the Great Lighthouse. Map Making itself won't be needed immediately either - we will get contact with Vox and GS via Lux, and Lego will be sending boats over before anyone else could.

I think the debate should be between Literature (Great Library) and Polytheism/Monarcy.

While Monarcy is tempting, I think we would benefit from an analysis of our chances of getting the Great Library. How long would each of our cities take to complete it? How likely are the others to start it, and beat us to it? I think ND is the only credible threat to beating us to it right now. How could we manage that risk? Diplomacy? Distractions?

	31-01-2003 23:49									#39
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Of course, if we can get the Great Library before anyone else then it would be far more useful to go for literature than for monarchy. The problem that annoys me is that big "if"... Does Literature has enough value in adition to the Great Library? Or do we have reasonably high chances of getting the Great Library? I confess that I don't know the answer to these questions.

And about the Great Lighthouse... No ofense, but I've always considered it a very low value wonder. Of course this can be caused just because my way of playing. But if we were going to go for a wonder I would recommend a different one.

	31-01-2003 23:50									#40
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We know that Lux is working on Monarchy by first going for Polytheism ... GoW claims that they want Mapmaking. Lego and GS also are working towards Mapmaking.

ND is working Mathematics and may go Currency next.

We could have the entire Writing tech tree to ourselves for a while. And at the rate that everyone else is trading techs, we could do very well with the Great Library.

To fully appreciate it's benefit we would go 10% science and would hopefully switch to Monarchy soon so that we can rush-build with gold.

However, I do agree that Legoland will likely focus on building wonders. Should we research Literature we will need to pre-build the GL and hold off the trade of this knowledge for quite some time to ensure that no one else can rob us of this fantastic development.

--Togas

	31-01-2003 23:57									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Togas We could have the entire Writing tech tree to ourselves for a while.

That could be interpreted as "a highly reasonable chance of getting the Great Library"

In that case, I would agree to go for Literature instead of Politeism/Monarchy. But we should pick a city and design it as the GL builder, starting to build a Palace (unless the city selected is Madrid) as soon as posible so we can start to build the GL even before discovering Literature. With 4 cities I think we can devote one to build that wonder...

	01-02-2003 00:12									#42
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We can pre-build with the Pyramids or Oracle in Madrid.

--Togas

	01-02-2003 00:15									#43
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That's true, but I would prefer if we built a palace because that wouldn't give the other civs a clue about what we are doing.

If I'm not wrong, every time a civ starts a wonder every other civ gets a pop up telling them about that. Isn't it?

	01-02-2003 00:26									#44
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True. It will depend more on the production capabilities though. If Madrid (with no corruption) has a distinct advantage over our other cities...

	01-02-2003 02:31									#45
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After reading the Togas analysis, I agree that we should go for Literature.

When it reaches a reasonable size, Barcelona could start building a Wonder (Pyramids for exemple), and switch to another Wonder later, maybe the Lighthouse or the GL. We can decide it later. If we fail in the race of an Ancient Times Wonder, we could switch to Palace and use it as a shieldbank until another wonder became available.

EDIT : oops ! crossing posts !

I think that Barcelona IS the city, because here it is possible to start with a palace. Madrid can't.

Last edited by astrologix on 01-02-2003 at 02:50

	01-02-2003 02:36									#46
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Oliverfa has a good point though - if we do use a city other than Madrid, we should use the Palace as a shield bank rather than a wonder, because it won't be communicated to the other civs.

	01-02-2003 04:16									#47
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the thing with starting to prebuild is that we are still REXing, Madrid is the best city to do part of that with, especially with it's temple. We need to explore this in about 20 turns time, but our best bet, to have the growth & trade from it is to get the HG & Monarchy.

Eta Tamali

	01-02-2003 05:06									#48
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E_T and I discussed wonders the other night.

I'm of the opinon that the Pyramids is only minimally useful because, as we've discussed, having granaries isn't really the end-all be-all. Pyramids also risks an early GA

We could, however, use the Pyramids as a shieldbank for a more valuable wonder in Madrid.

My personal recommendation, if we can get it before the others, is the Great Wall.

We plan to be building city walls in a number of our cities for the added defense and the Great Wall will double those city walls' effectiveness. With the Glory of War about to get their dreaded Riders and Neu Demogyptica concurrently getting their hands on the dreaded Ansar Warriors right about the same time, having pikemen fortified behind double-strength city walls might not be such a bad idea for neutralizing the value of their UU's.

The Great Wall will then last throughout much of the Middle Age until it becomes obsolete with the rise of canons. This does mean that anyone planning to do harm to Spain need only build their forces and wait for this time, but by then we should have musketeers, our own UU, and will have had most of the Middle Age to plan our defenses for when Metalurgy arrives and we need a new plan.

So what the Great Wall buys us is the neutralization of two out of three UU's on our own continent AND it buys us time throughout the early middle ages to hopefully avoid war against us and build ourselves up to be stronger than our potential opponents.

Think about it....

The other best option would be Great Library. Though it goes obsolete very quickly, it would allow us to concentrate on MONEY rather than science and thus quickly upgrade our spearmen to pikemen (and other upgrades) when we get feudalism, whereas our competitors will be more cash-strapped.

Thus Great Library is worth consideration...

Beyond that, there are very few ancient wonders that make an enormous difference for us that don't risk an early GA. Pyramids wouldn't be bad, but it risks an early GA. We are the civ that needs Hanging Gardens LEAST (having four luxuries and the religious trait at Regent level, we should have little difficulty with unrest). Great Library is nearly useless because we're on the main continent and likely will have contact with all other civs anyhow (AND it would risk an early GA ). Colossus is an AWESOME wonder, but the near certainty of causing an early GA makes it a bad choice. The Oracle has the same problem as the Hanging Gardens, we don't need it... AND it might cause an early GA we don't want yet.

So, in my book, the only ancient wonders worth shooting for are Great Wall and Great Library, in that order. The Sistine Chapel might not be bad if we can use another wonder or a palace as a shieldbank, however. It would be worth triggering our GA with Sistine... especially since the wonder never wears out and it doubles the effectiveness of our cheap cathedrals (whereas Oracle wears out and we probably don't need it).