10-01-2003 21:33									#31
	Remove this text

MP has way too many loopholes/bugs. Well... probably not as many bugs. And EVERYONE cheats at some time during a MP game. Yes - even those who say they do not. I've worked with many of you during games passing along info (i've gathered while cheating). But is it really cheating???? If you save a MP game and load it onto another PC/laptop you can enter cheat mode and reveal the map. Now, while playing with some of you 'god-you-take-forever-to-move-2-units' players - you have lots of time for this. Yes, that's cheating. But a lot of other 'cheats' during a game are just part of the play as far as i'm concerned. re-homing caravans is probably the least 'bad' cheat you could do in a MP game. The one thing i hate the most is 2 or 3 players trading techs. before you can build a few attacking units they are already out-dated and worthless. Does the trade-caravan-unit cheat still work (it's been a little while since i've played MP)?? This was as bad as re-homing caravans but you really can't call this a cheat. More a loophole.

	10-01-2003 22:32									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If you go to the MP forum and read the RAH rules thread, we're very very specific on what is allowed and what is not. And whether you believe it or not, it's my belief that the people in the core group do not violate the rules as stated. I know I don't, and I have checked numerous saves to see if others were. Granted you can't check to see if someone is loading it up on a second pc, but over time that player would appear a bit too psychic and it would be noticed. And if you're going to have any fun, you have to assume honor or you have to give it up.

I haven't given up.

RAH
Good to see you around.

	10-01-2003 23:47									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk And the winner is...!!!GATEKEEPER!!!!

I can't take all the credit. My mentor, the Old Testament God of the Israelites, really showed me the ins and outs of how to pound an offending people into dust.



Gatekeeper

	11-01-2003 05:21									#34
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I remember I was close to the center of the very heated discussion there was about caravan rehoming 2 years ago. And I stopped rehoming after that (except when playing the game of the month at civfanatics, where it is allowed).
I have come to the conclusion that rehoming is OK, provided you state that you made use of it (just what XinYu did when he started exploding my records in the CiC scenarios).
This is a game, and if you have more fun playing it with rehoming, why not?
What would be ugly would be using it and swear you didn't .
... but none of us does that

	11-01-2003 05:34									#35
	Suffering from ads?

Some of us are too lazy and forgetful to cheat effectively.

Blackclicking - what, I have to click on EVERY square?

oedo years - drat, I have to dig up that chart again - which folder was it in?

Caravan rehoming - can't make the goto function work, so 'vans get lost on the way to the SSC

Airbases - hey, I just built a bomber here and it's trapped!

and so on...

Once I get into the game, the turns fly by, and all the tricks vanish from my memory. Using cheats is WORK, not fun.

	11-01-2003 17:13									#36
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by rah If you go to the MP forum and read the RAH rules thread, we're very very specific on what is allowed and what is not. And whether you believe it or not, it's my belief that the people in the core group do not violate the rules as stated. I know I don't, and I have checked numerous saves to see if others were. Granted you can't check to see if someone is loading it up on a second pc, but over time that player would appear a bit too psychic and it would be noticed. And if you're going to have any fun, you have to assume honor or you have to give it up. I haven't given up. RAH

I believe everyone I have played from here stuck to whatever rules we agreed. Like Rah, I am not convinced enough to not check through some saves after playing someone new though.

	12-01-2003 05:11									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, it's so tedious, that I usually reserve it for newbs. Especially since nothing too strange seems to happen when I'm playing with our normal crew.

	12-01-2003 05:21									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

exactly, the reason i have stuck with this crew besides all the fun we have is the honor factor. if someone starts to rock after doing poorly, i will check saves, but until i get suspicious, i trust my gaming friends and firmly believe that none of them would cheat. rah or ming generally host, and i know they are reliable

	12-01-2003 05:26									#39
	Support Apolyton

Yes, Honor is a big point, so when MWHC says that we all do it. I just chuckle and feel sorry that he can't trust anybody.

	12-01-2003 05:29									#40
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

well i feel bad that he has given up on the game.....sure we have all bent the rules when someone is running a way with the game, but those aren't true alliances

its just a need for survival, leave me be while i hit him...haha...of course it doesn't always work

	12-01-2003 05:31									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yep, after a number of turns, I'm always leary of those informal agreements. For good cause of course.

	12-01-2003 05:33									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

but of course, although we ban alliances and tech trading etc, we can be "liberal" about tech stealing ....

keeps the balance in the game, and gives the weaklings a chance for survival

	12-01-2003 05:38									#43
	Suffering from ads?

Yeah, but you never know when someone is going to decide that they don't want you stealing all of a suddem (especially if someone builds the GL) or you're working on a wonder tech and you're afraid of them tech leapfrogging. I've done it often where I've killed a handful of dips when the person thought I was allowing it earlier.

	12-01-2003 05:41									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

yes you have, i dont' generally like to leave my dips open by the city, i try to position so i can make it there in one turn, this way there is no whining about that sort of thing, and i kill dips too, in fact i kill most dips....

have to catch me on a good day for me not too...

	12-01-2003 05:49									#45
	Increase Your PM Length

yes, i like to keep them away too, but sometimes they get discovered

	12-01-2003 05:52									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

its the leaving of caravans by a city that is suspicious

	12-01-2003 05:54									#47
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

yes, enemy caravans discover quite a few of my poised diplos. Especially if I have one poised waiting for a certain tech to be finished and their tech rate sucks.

Ships are much better, but there are only so many costal cities to pluck.

	12-01-2003 09:25									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

yes, anothe reason i try not to build right on the coast...plus you can always add a city on the tip later if you run out of room....

but mainly to avoid ships with those sea trannys

	12-01-2003 09:28									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'll sometimes do that, the last time I got pinned in and rushed mapmaking just to discover after researching it that i had no coastal cities to build ships in.

	12-01-2003 09:30									#50
	Increase Your PM Length

thats the worst, if you dont' have sea your in some trouble i think. Sea squares can make all the difference. nothing worse than haveing hills plains and sea with mountain rock, without the green its hard to grow

especially with all those tiny lakes, you end up having to connect 6 cities and lakes just to reach the shore

	13-01-2003 00:53									#51
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

map making ---> polytheism

who needs trade?

	13-01-2003 02:26									#52
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Caesar the Great who needs trade?

ask solo

	13-01-2003 06:13									#53
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

care to explain

	14-01-2003 05:37									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

War4ever,

solo and samson are the best specialists of early landing (therefore those who have discovered most important features about how this game works).

solo is currently busy improving his previous records on standard and big maps, and also giving detailed and well thought advice to those willing to read.

His thread about pre 500AD landings (currently on top of Apolyton's strategy forum) is a masterpiece.

... and trade is VERY important for early landing

	14-01-2003 09:10									#55
	Got spare money?

well yes thanx for the reply, those early landing dn't really interest me, landing is landing IMO, but now you have sparked my curiousity, i am off to read pages of threads,

you technical guys are great, before i did everything b/c it worked for me through trial and error and my mind works in this sort of way, for you guys to add rhyme and reason to my findings or experiences is just icing on the cake

	14-01-2003 13:51									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

War4ever,

You can count me in when talking about "technical guys", since I am one of those who made thorough testing about "how it works" (like Xin Yu, Slow Thinker or Marquis de Sodaq, for example).

Don't count me in when talking about "early landers" because I play mostly conquest games, and especially scenarios.

My proposal would be to state that the club of early landers would be restricted to players who have managed to land before 1000AD, namely:
samson, solo, Ribannah, SG(2), ...? (I can't name anyone else at the moment).

	14-01-2003 14:31									#57
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by War4ever you technical guys are great, before i did everything b/c it worked for me through trial and error and my mind works in this sort of way

Well you play MP, and some of early landing technique isn't useful in this sphere. For MP you just need the roaded cities knowledge.......though I'm sure the 'technical guys' helped a lot there.

	15-01-2003 02:30									#58
	Increase the size of your Attachments

actually for mp you need to take chances, find land, and be able to fight if assualted. Mp is so different, but its not like i didn't learn how to play the game in SP mode.

but like i said, stuff i did was on my own, and i am not the best teacher. i know what works, finding apolyton allowed me to refine strategies i already had , and make for better landing times, or faster conquests.

now apolyton is tearing the game apart bit by bit, and like an accident i can't look away even though it takes away the naivity of the game that i so enjoyed (not sure on the spelling there)

sp is fun, but only under difficult circumstances or games with unique positions etc......

mp i like b/c if it comes down to war, then you are going up against (hopefully) a master strategist.... thats where the fun comes in.

of course human interaction over icq phone is icing on the cake , especially after a few wobbly pops